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Thread: The Last Dance

  1. #46
    Member Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    So you are going to be there supporting athletes that come out and support the 2nd Amendment? You are going to defend an athlete that writes an op-ed about why they are against abortion?
    I don't know why I'd need to support them, but no, I don't care when athletes do those things. I've always assumed most baseball players are conservative, it doesn't bother me.

    And I guess it needs said again, this wasn't Jordan getting out the vote for Bill Clinton or something. You're really underplaying what a unique set of circumstances it was.
    Last edited by Redsfaithful; 05-14-2020 at 03:21 PM.
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  4. #47
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Bill Russell? He played in a league with 8-10 teams in which his team often had 4 of the best 6 players in the league. Jeter was surrounded by an elite team his entire career. Neither of those guys had the responsibility for winning and losing as Jordan. I can't speak on Gretzky because I know very little about the sport when he played....and I would suggest that you take another look at Tom Brady....he definitely had some similarities to Jordan....maybe not to the same level because he was helped by the coach, but as Gronk how fun it was to play with Brady early in his career....even Randy Moss has spoke about Brady just being relentless in tearing into teammates when he did not think they were doing what was needed to win at the highest level. The guy would not even throw to guys if he did not approve of them or doubted them.
    Well, I never hear about Tom Brady here in Boston (and I certainly don't have any former co-workers who cover the Patriots for a living). So I'm not going to spoil your illusions by telling you Brady's a generally even-keel guy who directs most of his intensity inward rather than outward. Anyway, the point remains: MJ was extra, 24/7/365. You don't have to be like Mike to win. He's a fairly extreme example of the winning-is-everything mindset.
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  5. #48
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    I don't know why I'd need to support them, but no, I don't care when athletes do those things. I've always assumed most baseball players are conservative, it doesn't bother me.

    And I guess it needs said again, this wasn't Jordan getting out the vote for Bill Clinton or something. You're really underplaying what a unique set of circumstances it was.
    Only you know you....but I strongly believe that the perception or recollection would be much different. I know the situation in regards to Helms but I do not think anyone should feel that Jordan is obligated to support any politician, especially with his time and likeness.....nor do I think any other business person in his situation would have acted differently at the time. Lets not pretend that there is politics and race are not the foundation of that mark....he is a black athlete, so he is "expected" to act and think a specific way or there must be a problem. The list is endless....but in recent years look how the response has been towards Stephen A Smith or Charles Barkley when they took a position culturally or politically that the media felt was unbecoming of a black athlete....or more specifically did not support a specific narrative. Finally, it would not have made a difference if Jordan showed up at an event for Gannt.....athletes do not move the political needle.

  6. #49
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Well, I never hear about Tom Brady here in Boston (and I certainly don't have any former co-workers who cover the Patriots for a living). So I'm not going to spoil your illusions by telling you Brady's a generally even-keel guy who directs most of his intensity inward rather than outward. Anyway, the point remains: MJ was extra, 24/7/365. You don't have to be like Mike to win. He's a fairly extreme example of the winning-is-everything mindset.
    In regards to Brady, I am just going on statements by Gronk and Moss in recent months. Also, as I pointed out, Belichick was there. There have been countless stories in recent years from players talking about how it was not very fun to play in New England....success has a price, especially when the talent gap is thin.

  7. #50
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Finally, it would not have made a difference if Jordan showed up at an event for Gannt.....athletes do not move the political needle.
    I think they really wanted him to cut an ad, political advertising does move needles, if you don't agree then agree to disagree I guess.

    A lot of the rest of your argument is moot, it wouldn't have hurt him with consumers, nothing he did there was going to be seen much outside of North Carolina.
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  8. #51
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Only you know you....but I strongly believe that the perception or recollection would be much different. I know the situation in regards to Helms but I do not think anyone should feel that Jordan is obligated to support any politician, especially with his time and likeness.....nor do I think any other business person in his situation would have acted differently at the time. Lets not pretend that there is politics and race are not the foundation of that mark....he is a black athlete, so he is "expected" to act and think a specific way or there must be a problem. The list is endless....but in recent years look how the response has been towards Stephen A Smith or Charles Barkley when they took a position culturally or politically that the media felt was unbecoming of a black athlete....or more specifically did not support a specific narrative. Finally, it would not have made a difference if Jordan showed up at an event for Gannt.....athletes do not move the political needle.
    If MJ were playing today and a similar situation came up; if he said that Republicans buy shoes too, he would get the same reaction but magnified because of sports and social media. However if he decided to publicly support the Democrat, he would be told to stick to sports. It's kind of a no win situation for famous people. Whatever they say is going to make people angry.
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  10. #52
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    I think they really wanted him to cut an ad, political advertising does move needles, if you don't agree then agree to disagree I guess.

    A lot of the rest of your argument is moot, it wouldn't have hurt him with consumers, nothing he did there was going to be seen much outside of North Carolina.
    You say it would not have hurt him...maybe you are correct, but I would point out the North Carolina was a fairly different place 30+ years ago as well as demographics, socioeconomics, etc. of the consumer base of his products. I am speculating, but I would guess a larger % of his shoe sales in the 80's was upper middle class suburban white kids because of the price point. I am speculating that because my family was not dirt poor, and I was not wearing the early versions of Jordan's (but i recall the couple kids that did) because the price point at the time was above other basketball shoes. By the early 90's, the price was not as "shocking" and families like mine were more willing to pay that price. Again, I admit I am just speculating. Also, let's be honest....in NC is in the 80's, a campaign would not have hesitated to put out an ad insinuating "this black athlete coming back to NC trying to tell all of us good white people who to vote for".....if I recall, Helms used some ads in that campaign that have been interpreted to have been racially charged near the end of the race. In the end, my belief is still that this is in no way a fair criticism of Jordan.

  11. #53
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    lol his own mother asked him to do something and he said no

    And, just to be clear, this wasn't just politics, it was a race in the state where he's from involving literally probably the most racist senator of the last century.
    To me this doc has made me love Jordan more.

    He was not political. He was 100% about winning.

    To have people complain that all someone cares about is championships- what?

    I mean Jordan comes off as refreshing to me.

    Winning was nice and all, but South Carolina was racist and Michael Jordan should have shifted focus...

    As I say- Jordan wasnt political. To hate on him for being something he wasnt...kind of like hating rain for not curing the flu.
    Last edited by Dom Heffner; 05-16-2020 at 09:22 AM.

  12. #54
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Yeah, I hate it when players are good at their sport. Who wants to watch a fast-paced game with shooting and scoring when you could watch the intricacy of team Greco-Roman wrestling?
    I understand why they're doing it but I'm just not a fan. I'm only 36 but I feel like I have the mindset of a 65-year-old at times when I don't want it to change. I just find that brand of basketball boring.

    But overall, I hate the NBA more because of all the other crap off the court. That's why I love Jordan. To him, everything is about basketball and that's what I want it to be. I don't really care what his opinion is on issues whether I agree with him or not.

  13. #55
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Well, I never hear about Tom Brady here in Boston (and I certainly don't have any former co-workers who cover the Patriots for a living). So I'm not going to spoil your illusions by telling you Brady's a generally even-keel guy who directs most of his intensity inward rather than outward. Anyway, the point remains: MJ was extra, 24/7/365. You don't have to be like Mike to win. He's a fairly extreme example of the winning-is-everything mindset.
    The Brady comparison is not a good one just from a math standpoint. Jordan makes up 20% of the players on the court and is worth much more. Brady makes up less than 10%. There are a lot of factors into that, but I digress. Did Jordan need to do that? Yes, in his mind. Instead of winning 6, he might win 3 or 4 but that's worth it to him. He's so competitive that I think there's a reason he wanted this to come out now. He was starting to hear too much bullcrap about how Lebron is better than him and he wanted everyone, including a new generation to know, that Lebron is a level below him.

  14. #56
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Heffner View Post

    To have people complain that all someone cares about is championships- what?
    This is pretty funny because nobody has complained about his drive to win.

    I find Michael Jordan hysterical myself, if someone watching this isn't laughing at large portions of it then I have to wonder about them.

    I love Jordan, but he's pretty clearly out there. Surprised that's a controversial statement, but I guess I shouldn't be, he's a sacred cow for so many people.

    I have a lot of nostalgia for 90s sports because I was a kid then, and it certainly had a ton of great moments and stories, but it's all more interesting now.

    Roid baseball, boring hacking low scoring basketball, golf mostly before Tiger Woods, tennis before Fed/Nadal, the NFL dominated by pretty boring teams like Dallas and Denver, give me sports now any day, and that includes Jordan vs. someone like Lebron.

    I'll say too, dynasties like the Bulls are more interesting in hindsight, living through them is impressive but boring because of a lack of drama. That's a testament to them, but as a fan it's not ideal. The NBA has suffered from this a lot recently obviously.
    Last edited by Redsfaithful; 05-16-2020 at 02:33 PM.
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  16. #57
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    Re: The Last Dance

    As a resident of North Carolina (and voter) during both Gantt/Helms Senate races, and (full disclosure) a supporter of the candidate that many feel MJ was 'obligated' to publicly support/endorse, I completely understand why Jordan declined to do so:

    1)The chances of a public endorsement of Gantt by Michael Jordan producing a discernible impact on the outcome of the election were slimmer than slim - Michael Jordan's opinion, as well as the feelings of his family, about Gantt's opponent were well known at the time anyway. And it's not as if critics of the incumbent Senator were not motivated enough to flock to the polls to vote. They certainly were and did so, and it still didn't move the needle enough to win the election.

    2)No getting around it, his brand would have suffered as a result - Aside from the obvious fact that both elections took place during a time in which (A)The internet was unavailable to average consumers (B)The internet, as we know it, was in its infancy stage, and during the pre-Social Media (and the marketing/promoting advantages thereof) era, there were other additional factors in play here:

    Jordan's Tar Heel brand - While Chapel Hill, NC was considered a 'Liberal haven' - and still is - within the State, it was also safe to assume that many Tar Heel fans and supporters resided in rural settings, and likely supported Gantt's opponent. What if the child/teenager of a member of said demographic wanted their parents to buy Jordan-branded shoes or a Jordan Tar Heel/Bulls jersey? Yep, it would've been an issue for sure.

    This high-profile Senate Race, which attracted a HUGE amount of attention Nationwide, encompassed more than party lines - I'm going to refrain from expounding on certain issues as this is not the Political board, but both candidates -- who were viewed by many as expressing views too extreme for the mainstream for either party at the time -- received a significant amount of support from registered voters from the opposite party. Therefore, instead of Republicans buy shoes too, it would have, as it turned out, to be more accurately stated as "Voters buy shoes too." Translation: It wasn't worth the risk for MJ and his brands (North Carolina native son/National - NBA) to be placed in such a situation.

    That's why, regardless of the vocal positions of entertainers in today's Social Media department, MJ deserves a pass for this.
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  18. #58
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    This is pretty funny because nobody has complained about his drive to win.

    I find Michael Jordan hysterical myself, if someone watching this isn't laughing at large portions of it then I have to wonder about them.

    I love Jordan, but he's pretty clearly out there. Surprised that's a controversial statement, but I guess I shouldn't be, he's a sacred cow for so many people.

    I have a lot of nostalgia for 90s sports because I was a kid then, and it certainly had a ton of great moments and stories, but it's all more interesting now.

    Roid baseball, boring hacking low scoring basketball, golf mostly before Tiger Woods, tennis before Fed/Nadal, the NFL dominated by pretty boring teams like Dallas and Denver, give me sports now any day, and that includes Jordan vs. someone like Lebron.

    I'll say too, dynasties like the Bulls are more interesting in hindsight, living through them is impressive but boring because of a lack of drama. That's a testament to them, but as a fan it's not ideal. The NBA has suffered from this a lot recently obviously.
    I’m hoping in 20 years we get a Patriots 30/30. Not because I like or don’t like them but they are clearly the Bulls of our generation.

    The Warriors are a close second but seeing the Belichick-Brady relationship implode up close would be worth it.
    Last edited by WVRed; 05-16-2020 at 10:23 PM.
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  20. #59
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Has anyone read The Jordan Rules? Great book. Jordan is a very motivated player that wanted to win games or matchups in practice. He would scare and intimidate players in practice and expected you to be ready to win.

    Players that were around during the late 80s and early 90s would never get on teams now we all know that. But it was a league that revolved around the Center until Michael showed that you could win without a good one. But only he could do that. The Rockets who won when Jordan went to play baseball and then the Spurs after he retired. The Lakers with Shaq.
    They needed a center while Jordan could win with Cartwright. Longley?

    The low scoring thug like defending was also nothing to do with Jordan and the Bulls either.

    It started with the Pistons. And so called Jordan rules to stop him which was to get dirty with him and knock him around. Make him mad. Make him try to win the game himself.

    Pay Riley then took it to the next level. Mr. Showtime went rogue and started winning games where neither team scored 90 points on a lot of nights. The games just got ugly with the exception of those early 2000s Laker teams.
    Last edited by Tony Cloninger; 05-16-2020 at 09:32 PM.

  21. #60
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    I understand why they're doing it but I'm just not a fan. I'm only 36 but I feel like I have the mindset of a 65-year-old at times when I don't want it to change. I just find that brand of basketball boring.

    But overall, I hate the NBA more because of all the other crap off the court. That's why I love Jordan. To him, everything is about basketball and that's what I want it to be. I don't really care what his opinion is on issues whether I agree with him or not.
    I think I see the problem. You completely missed the more open game of the '70s and '80s. They're playing that way again because they can do it. The skill level is insane now, and constantly progressing. That dire brand of basketball where if you had two guys who could score reliably that was a lot (and three made you a super team), that's dead. It was offensive watching teams full of bricklayers.

    As for players being more vocal, I find it refreshing.
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