Ranking the 25 worst ever Hall-of-Fame selections

[Boston Red]

I was always a big fan of Quiz's from the same era, and he ranks above Sutter and Fingers on both the metrics listed above. Why no love for him from the BBWA? # of saves the issue?

[RedsFanInMS]

Bill Mazeroski

Lou Brock

Tony Perez (.800 Career OPS) with a .270 AVG and a .340 OBP


Those 3 dont deserve the hall.

Mazeroski got in because of the World Series walkoff homer vs the Yanks. He doesn't do that no HOF.
Doggie got in because he was part of the Big Red Machine. Those stats on any other team equals no HOF.
I think Lou Brock deserves it. Over 3,000 hits, and had the all time and single season stolen base records when he retired.

[M2]

Raisel’s was 102 last year. Fingers’ FIP is half a run better as well. If Raisel puts up 10 seasons of above average ERA, 20+ saves, he might have a chance at the HOF.

Anyway, Fingers gets in for re-defining the role of the closer. Same for Sutter. They paved the way for Rivera, Hoffman and others. That’s always an important role of the HOF, recognizing trailblazers.

I don't have a problem with Fingers being in the Hall and totally get the rationale. I just think it needs to be acknowledged it's more for what you wrote and less for him being awesome at pitching. Probably the most impressive thing about his stats is he logged 100+ IP out of then pen for a solid decade.

[757690]

One thing that gets overlooked is that it is the Hall of Fame. It’s not the Hall of Best Players. It is supposed to honor the history of MLB. Sometimes that means players who weren’t the best, but were important.

[westofyou]

I sat behind Fingers on a plane once from Phoenix to Oakland when he was pitching in the Senior League (You remember that? Oh if you don't read this)

He was one tall and lanky guy, his hips were about a foot apart

[TOG]

Mazeroski got in because of the World Series walkoff homer vs the Yanks. He doesn't do that no HOF.
Doggie got in because he was part of the Big Red Machine. Those stats on any other team equals no HOF.
I think Lou Brock deserves it. Over 3,000 hits, and had the all time and single season stolen base records when he retired.

Yeah, im prob being too hard on Brock - Raines got in eventually and he was a much better player, but you cant argue w the hits.

good points.

he did get caught stealing quite a bit, tho

I feel like Tonys HOF case would have been better (I mean, he's in) if he had retired 4 years sooner too

[M2]

I think Lou Brock deserves it. Over 3,000 hits, and had the all time and single season stolen base records when he retired.

Yep, longevity counts. It was also really hard to score in his era. If all you did was get on base and wait, you were likely to end the inning still on base. Brock made things happen. I don't think the advanced stats give him enough credit for what he did.

[foster15]

ERA vs the league average tells how dominating Mario was compared to the rest of the relievers, sure the league scored a run more per game than they did during Rollies era, I just don't see Fingers getting in for more than Saves + being an original closer

ERA                               DIFF     PLAYER     LEAGUE         SV   
1    Mariano Rivera               2.32       2.21       4.53        652   
2    Billy Wagner                 1.99       2.31       4.30        422   
3    Craig Kimbrel                1.94       2.08       4.02        346   
4    Aroldis Chapman              1.85       2.23       4.09        273   
5    Jonathan Papelbon            1.83       2.44       4.28        368   
6    Tom Henke                    1.46       2.67       4.13        311   
7    Kenley Jansen                1.44       2.35       3.80        301   
8    Troy Percival                1.43       3.17       4.61        358   
9    John Wetteland               1.41       2.93       4.34        330   
10   Joe Nathan                   1.40       2.87       4.27        377   
11   Francisco Rodriguez          1.34       2.86       4.20        437   
12   Dan Quisenberry              1.27       2.76       4.03        244   
13   Greg Holland                 1.24       2.96       4.20        206   
14   Joakim Soria                 1.22       3.02       4.24        221   
15   Armando Benitez              1.20       3.13       4.33        289   
16   Huston Street                1.20       2.95       4.15        324   
17   Rafael Soriano               1.18       2.89       4.06        207   
18   Francisco Cordero            1.17       3.38       4.56        329   
19   Trevor Hoffman               1.14       2.87       4.01        601   
20   Jeff Montgomery              1.13       3.27       4.40        304   
21   Hoyt Wilhelm                 1.12       2.52       3.65        227   
22   Robb Nen                     1.11       2.98       4.09        314   
23   Jose Valverde                1.08       3.27       4.35        288   
24   John Franco                  1.08       2.89       3.97        424   
25   Bruce Sutter                 1.06       2.83       3.89        300   
26   Roberto Hernandez            1.06       3.45       4.51        326   
27   Lee Smith                    0.99       3.03       4.02        478   
28   Ugueth Urbina                0.98       3.45       4.43        237   
29   Doug Jones                   0.93       3.30       4.23        303   
30   Brian Fuentes                0.93       3.62       4.55        204   
31   Bob Wickman                  0.89       3.57       4.46        267   
32   Sparky Lyle                  0.80       2.88       3.69        238   
33   Goose Gossage                0.78       3.01       3.79        310   
34   Dave Smith                   0.77       2.67       3.44        216   
35   Rod Beck                     0.77       3.30       4.07        286   
36   Gregg Olson                  0.76       3.46       4.22        217   
37   Randy Myers                  0.76       3.19       3.95        347   
38   Brad Lidge                   0.76       3.54       4.29        225   
39   Bobby Thigpen                0.66       3.43       4.10        201   
40   Todd Worrell                 0.66       3.09       3.75        256   
41   Jeff Reardon                 0.64       3.16       3.79        367   
42   Rick Aguilera                0.61       3.57       4.18        318   
43   Jeff Shaw                    0.61       3.54       4.15        203   
44   Gene Garber                  0.60       3.34       3.94        218   
45   Dennis Eckersley             0.57       3.50       4.07        390   
46   Rollie Fingers               0.55       2.90       3.45        341   
47   Jason Isringhausen           0.48       3.64       4.13        300   
48   Dave Righetti                0.45       3.46       3.92        252   
49   Todd Jones                   0.44       3.97       4.41        319   
50   Fernando Rodney              0.35       3.80       4.16        327

I

It's more that that and I think someone touched on this in the thread. Go look at Fingers' game logs and you'll notice many 2, 3, 4 and 5 inning stints. How many on your list had that much asked of them. I'm guessing that it's much easier to rack up great stats only being asked to pitch no more than 2 innings and usually 1, than it is to not know what's going to be asked of you from game to game and still be considered the closer.

Being a closer in the game today is much easier mentally and physically than it was back in Fingers' day. In today's game you only need one mind set, get up to 3 outs when called upon.

[westofyou]

It's more that that and I think someone touched on this in the thread. Go look at Fingers' game logs and you'll notice many 2, 3, 4 and 5 inning stints. How many on your list had that much asked of them. I'm guessing that it's much easier to rack up great stats only being asked to pitch no more than 2 innings and usually 1, than it is to not know what's going to be asked of you from game to game and still be considered the closer.

Being a closer in the game today is much easier mentally and physically than it was back in Fingers' day. In today's game you only need one mind set, get up to 3 outs when called upon.

Oh yeah those guys went longer for sure, but almost every reliever then was doing that, let's look at Rollie, 1974 - 1985 , 663 games, only 69 were 3 innings or more, so if we want to use the term "Many" I'd focus more on the 0-3 number not 3, 4 and 5 as far as innings pitched in a game. Being a closer in Rollie's day meant he saw more sub standard bats, more Frank Duffy's Dave McKay, Doyle, Aurilo Rodriguez, Veryzer's, Kuipers, Chalks and Belangers. If you have to churn the innings a couple of those guys help that a lot.

[westofyou]

Yep, longevity counts. It was also really hard to score in his era. If all you did was get on base and wait, you were likely to end the inning still on base. Brock made things happen. I don't think the advanced stats give him enough credit for what he did.

He created havoc for the Cardinals, his contributions in their pennant winning years really were big, he played it out on some teams that didn't measure up and it looked like he was chasing numbers, perhaps he was. Vada Pinson had 305 steals, Brock was CAUGHT stealing 307 times

[CySeymour]

I always felt if Sutter was in, then Dan Quisenberry should be in as well.

[Boston Red]

Vada Pinson had 305 steals, Brock was CAUGHT stealing 307 times

It's a testament to just how good MLB catchers are when even Rickey Henderson was thrown out on 19% of his steal attempts (the year he stole 130 it was 24% of the time).

[Kingspoint]

I was always a big fan of Quiz's from the same era, and he ranks above Sutter and Fingers on both the metrics listed above. Why no love for him from the BBWA? # of saves the issue?

I used to cash the checks of his family (same name) when I worked at BofA in the Bay Area. So, his name came up a lot in our brief conversations. This was at his peak in '84 and '85 (6th and 3rd in MVP voting and 2nd three years in a row in CY voting). I named my cat at the time, K.C. (not for Kitty Cat, but for Kansas City, as in the Royals).

2nd in CY voting four times is a pretty good resume.

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It's a testament to just how good MLB catchers are when even Rickey Henderson was thrown out on 19% of his steal attempts (the year he stole 130 it was 24% of the time).

You steal on Pitchers.

[Boston Red]

You steal on Pitchers.

Absolutely, but even if the pitcher does his job you've still got to be REALLY, REALLY good to make a throw that beats Rickey Henderson to second (or third).

[RedsFanInMS]

I always felt if Sutter was in, then Dan Quisenberry should be in as well.

Yep. I felt Quis was better than Sutter and Fingers. When I think of dominant closers of the late 70's-80's Quis pops in my mind first.