"One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."
JohnnyRed (07-14-2020)
Not many names I recognize on that list...Originally Posted by Kingspoint
I want the time I spent scrolling that pointless drivel back.
They're correct on all
Kingspoint (07-14-2020)
I disagree on Fingers and Sutter. They were the dominant closers of their time, and closers were a dominant part of the game during that time.
I believe closers became overrated, when they only pitched in the 9th of winning games, but that was not true of Fingers or Sutter at all. They came in to pitch in all situation, and were outstanding for years.
Hoping to change my username to 75769024
Runs Saved above average less than 50 starts
Code:CAREER GAMES STARTED <= 50 ERA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria SAVES displayed only--not a sorting criteria RSAA RSAA GS ERA-LG IP SV 1 Mariano Rivera 330 10 2.32 1283.2 652 2 Billy Wagner 198 0 1.99 903 422 3 Goose Gossage 160 37 0.78 1809.1 310 4 John Franco 149 0 1.08 1245.2 424 T5 Jonathan Papelbon 148 3 1.83 725.2 368 T5 Dan Quisenberry 148 0 1.27 1043.1 244 T5 Kent Tekulve 148 0 0.92 1436.1 184 T8 Joe Nathan 146 29 1.40 923.1 377 T8 Francisco Rodriguez 146 0 1.34 976 437 10 Lee Smith 143 6 0.99 1289.1 478 11 Trevor Hoffman 137 0 1.14 1089.1 601 12 John Hiller 136 43 0.97 1242 125 13 Tom Henke 128 0 1.46 789.2 311 14 Roberto Hernandez 126 3 1.06 1071.1 326 T15 Mark Eichhorn 123 7 1.26 885.2 32 T15 Bruce Sutter 123 0 1.06 1042.1 300 17 Sparky Lyle 122 0 0.80 1390.1 238 18 Mike Timlin 121 4 0.90 1204.1 141 19 Craig Kimbrel 120 0 1.94 553.1 346 T20 Steve Reed 119 0 1.18 870.1 18 T20 John Wetteland 119 17 1.41 765 330 22 Doug Jones 117 4 0.93 1128.1 303 23 Mike Jackson 115 7 0.84 1188.1 142 T24 Keith Foulke 114 8 1.28 786.2 191 T24 Troy Percival 114 1 1.43 708.2 358 T26 Aroldis Chapman 111 0 1.85 535.2 273 T26 Jesse Orosco 111 4 0.78 1295 144 T28 Francisco Cordero 110 0 1.17 824.2 329 T28 Jeff Montgomery 110 1 1.13 868.2 304 30 Darren O'Day 108 0 1.75 560.1 21 31 Brad Ziegler 106 0 1.34 717.1 105 32 Armando Benitez 105 0 1.20 779 289 33 Bob Wickman 104 28 0.89 1059 267 34 Rollie Fingers 103 37 0.55 1701.1 341 35 Gene Garber 102 9 0.60 1510 218
Edd Roush (07-14-2020),Kingspoint (07-14-2020),M2 (07-14-2020)
I don’t know how “runs saved” is calculated, so I can’t comment on this chart. However, closers are undervalued by most advanced stats because the advanced stats ignore or downplay the leverage of the situation they pitch in. One thing this chart may reveal is that more closers deserve to be in the Hall.
Hoping to change my username to 75769024
FYI:
From Lee Sinins Baseball Encyclopedia
RSAA--Runs saved against average. It's the amount of runs that a pitcher saved vs. what an average pitcher would have allowed. It's the same stat as Total Baseball's Pitching Runs, except
(1) we both have different ways of park adjustments
(2) they added a procedure to take into account the amount of decisions (W+L) the pitcher had, while RSAA doesn't have that. Just like RCAA, the stat can produce a negative result
757690 (07-14-2020),Edd Roush (07-14-2020),Kingspoint (07-14-2020)
I was kind of expecting to see a Phil Rizzuto mention in that article. Maybe he's 26th worst.
"I can make all the stadiums rock."
-Air Supply
Okay, I always have to question this kind of stuff(just to be clear uppercase ERA stands for Earned Run Average while lower case stands for a period of time). I would say runs given up by pitchers in the recent era is more than in the Fingers and Sutter eras. However, I'm guessing that closers don't reflect nearly that kind of change. Closers are your best ERA guys in general and always have been. But starters and middle relievers ERA's have probably gone up more significantly for a slew of reasons.
Just as an example, let's take an unattainable scenario. Let's say you had a closer with 0.00 ERA in 1975 and a closer of 2019 with an identical ERA and all other stats taken into consideration. If the average runs given up back then are 3.00 and the average today is 4.00 then obviously today's closer would be higher up on your list. However, what could the closer of 1975 do to prove himself equal? Nothing when it comes to this stat(totally out of his control). He couldn't pitch any better and he's penalized for the difference in eras.
Also, Mariano Rivera started 10 games his first season with a whopping 5.51 ERA. Never started another game after that. Rollie Fingers started 37 games his career with a 4.42 ERA as a starter. Neither were helped into the HOF due to their starting contributions. Basically, it was their roles as a closer that got them there. So since their role as one of the perceived greatest closers in history is what got them in the HOF, that list should only show stats when a closer's role is performed.
BTW, in no way am I saying that Fingers was equal to Rivera, just trying to show why I don't believe that lists like this show the true story. What I am saying, kind of, is that no way, no how are all 33 players listed above Fingers, better or more deserving of the HOF than Fingers which is an obvious reason this list means nothing as far as HOF worthiness..
Last edited by foster15; 07-14-2020 at 02:16 PM.
ERA vs the league average tells how dominating Mario was compared to the rest of the relievers, sure the league scored a run more per game than they did during Rollies era, I just don't see Fingers getting in for more than Saves + being an original closer
ICode:ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE SV 1 Mariano Rivera 2.32 2.21 4.53 652 2 Billy Wagner 1.99 2.31 4.30 422 3 Craig Kimbrel 1.94 2.08 4.02 346 4 Aroldis Chapman 1.85 2.23 4.09 273 5 Jonathan Papelbon 1.83 2.44 4.28 368 6 Tom Henke 1.46 2.67 4.13 311 7 Kenley Jansen 1.44 2.35 3.80 301 8 Troy Percival 1.43 3.17 4.61 358 9 John Wetteland 1.41 2.93 4.34 330 10 Joe Nathan 1.40 2.87 4.27 377 11 Francisco Rodriguez 1.34 2.86 4.20 437 12 Dan Quisenberry 1.27 2.76 4.03 244 13 Greg Holland 1.24 2.96 4.20 206 14 Joakim Soria 1.22 3.02 4.24 221 15 Armando Benitez 1.20 3.13 4.33 289 16 Huston Street 1.20 2.95 4.15 324 17 Rafael Soriano 1.18 2.89 4.06 207 18 Francisco Cordero 1.17 3.38 4.56 329 19 Trevor Hoffman 1.14 2.87 4.01 601 20 Jeff Montgomery 1.13 3.27 4.40 304 21 Hoyt Wilhelm 1.12 2.52 3.65 227 22 Robb Nen 1.11 2.98 4.09 314 23 Jose Valverde 1.08 3.27 4.35 288 24 John Franco 1.08 2.89 3.97 424 25 Bruce Sutter 1.06 2.83 3.89 300 26 Roberto Hernandez 1.06 3.45 4.51 326 27 Lee Smith 0.99 3.03 4.02 478 28 Ugueth Urbina 0.98 3.45 4.43 237 29 Doug Jones 0.93 3.30 4.23 303 30 Brian Fuentes 0.93 3.62 4.55 204 31 Bob Wickman 0.89 3.57 4.46 267 32 Sparky Lyle 0.80 2.88 3.69 238 33 Goose Gossage 0.78 3.01 3.79 310 34 Dave Smith 0.77 2.67 3.44 216 35 Rod Beck 0.77 3.30 4.07 286 36 Gregg Olson 0.76 3.46 4.22 217 37 Randy Myers 0.76 3.19 3.95 347 38 Brad Lidge 0.76 3.54 4.29 225 39 Bobby Thigpen 0.66 3.43 4.10 201 40 Todd Worrell 0.66 3.09 3.75 256 41 Jeff Reardon 0.64 3.16 3.79 367 42 Rick Aguilera 0.61 3.57 4.18 318 43 Jeff Shaw 0.61 3.54 4.15 203 44 Gene Garber 0.60 3.34 3.94 218 45 Dennis Eckersley 0.57 3.50 4.07 390 46 Rollie Fingers 0.55 2.90 3.45 341 47 Jason Isringhausen 0.48 3.64 4.13 300 48 Dave Righetti 0.45 3.46 3.92 252 49 Todd Jones 0.44 3.97 4.41 319 50 Fernando Rodney 0.35 3.80 4.16 327
Last edited by westofyou; 07-14-2020 at 02:59 PM.
M2 (07-14-2020)
Just to put things into even sharper perspective, Fingers had a career 120 ERA+. Raisel Iglesias is at 135.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Bill Mazeroski
Lou Brock
Tony Perez (.800 Career OPS) with a .270 AVG and a .340 OBP
Those 3 dont deserve the hall.
Rollie got in for his mustache. Well deserved.
Raisel’s was 102 last year. Fingers’ FIP is half a run better as well. If Raisel puts up 10 seasons of above average ERA, 20+ saves, he might have a chance at the HOF.
Anyway, Fingers gets in for re-defining the role of the closer. Same for Sutter. They paved the way for Rivera, Hoffman and others. That’s always an important role of the HOF, recognizing trailblazers.
Hoping to change my username to 75769024
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