Covid-19, Part VII - Staying On Topic...

[NachoMan]

That is not the point I was making. I was making the point that a discussion cannot start until the character assassinations stop. If you are open to this, cool. Let's start!

I want to challenge the point that I have a moral duty to wear a mask. I do in fact wear a mask. But that is because the business I shop at may be forced to close if there are too many violations. I disagree strongly with the mask mandate. But I don't want others to suffer for my convictions. I begrudgingly submit.

But this does not mean I think there is a moral duty to wear a mask. Can I assume we agree that their is not general moral duty to wear a mask so most circumstances? There is no general duty to wear a mask anymore than there is a duty to wear any article of clothing in most times/places. If you are to create a moral duty, it is the responsibility of the proposer to clearly lay out all the evidence supporting their conclusion. I do not see any such evidence. I see contradicting mandates, "moving goalpost" strategies, outright lies, hypocrisy, confusing value questions with medical questions, attacks on constitutional rights, and so on. If you want to carefully lay out the evidence justifying a government mandate- I'm all ears. But, until then, the shaming of the those non-complying looks more like religious ostracism than a justified rebuke.

Let me make my objection clearer with an analogy. Would you support a mandate that outlawed sex unless a condom was used? Maybe special permits can be purchased for couples wishing to have have baby. Given the reasoning behind the mask mandate our government(s) have the right to initiate this policy. If the right people in the right places see it as a legitimate health issue, mandate away. This is what a technocracy looks like. I support technocracies less than almost every type of governance.

Well this is some grade-A pedantic gobbledygook. Then you masterfully continue your obfuscation with your "analogy" -- in this case, a ridiculous strawman argument about safe sex. Well done -- looks like you recently misunderstood some philosophy book and now go around stroking your chin and slyly dropping "moral imperative" in every other conversation. Just delightful.

[Rojo]

Nobody's dying in Sweden and they have high antibody tests.

https://www.thelocal.se/20200723/14-...tive-in-sweden

Super crazy that our immune systems work better than bandanas.

[Rojo]

So I'd seen the big anti-mask rallies in Germany but all the news story were reporting them as Far Right. Which I knew was bull****. Europe has a great tradition of of Left-Libertarianism.

Anyhow, here's the real deal on twitter:

https://twitter.com/consent_factory/...54032543764481

[WrongVerb]

Sweden has a higher death rate than the US:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

#	Country, Other	Total Cases	New Cases	Total Deaths	New Deaths	Total Recovered	Active Cases	Serious, Critical	Tot Cases/ 1M pop	Deaths/ 1M pop	Total Tests	Tests/ 1M pop	Population
8	Sweden	81,012	+43	5,744	+5	N/A	N/A	39	8,017	568	810,356	80,194	10,104,909
10	USA	4,815,895	+2,248	158,376	+11	2,380,584	2,276,935	18,629	14,542	478	59,967,584	181,074	331,176,957

[jup]

This might be a little easier to read.

[jup]

Sweden has a higher death rate than the US:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

#	Country, Other	Total Cases	New Cases	Total Deaths	New Deaths	Total Recovered	Active Cases	Serious, Critical	Tot Cases/ 1M pop	Deaths/ 1M pop	Total Tests	Tests/ 1M pop	Population
8	Sweden	81,012	+43	5,744	+5	N/A	N/A	39	8,017	568	810,356	80,194	10,104,909
10	USA	4,815,895	+2,248	158,376	+11	2,380,584	2,276,935	18,629	14,542	478	59,967,584	181,074	331,176,957

Now that is readable

[WrongVerb]

Now that is readable

Wish I could figure out how to put in borders.

[jup]

Wish I could figure out how to put in borders.

I just screen-shoot it, go into a photo software and do the highlighting stuff, then upload it.

Trying to even get columns to align on the site is next to impossible, none the less anything else.

[WrongVerb]

I just screen-shoot it, go into a photo software and do the highlighting stuff, then upload it.

Trying to even get columns to align on the site is next to impossible, none the less anything else.

I just paste it into this site: https://theenemy.dk/table/ and push go. It creates the bbcode table.

[LeDoux]

It seemed disingenuous at the time and appears even more so now.



That's too bad. But as long as you're wearing it.



A pandemic isn't "most circumstances". Surely you know this.



Oh, the "confusion" tactic again. That's not new and no, if you hold a position that people shouldn't be wearing masks, then it's YOUR responsibility to support your position- not everyone else's duty to prove otherwise. Regardless, here's a pretty compelling piece of evidence that people should probably follow whatever guidelines are in place to avoid the transmission of Covid-19:

Attachment 16341

Previous threads have more than enough additional support for mask-wearing. I'm not going to go dig them up for you. Ditto for the internet.

But hey, feel free to walk around as naked as you like in public. I'm not sure your rhetoric (which is beginning to smell a bit sovereign citizen-esque) will save you from the indecent exposure charge in court, but have at it.



And finally, an apples to astronauts analogy turn leading into a "slippery slope" home stretch to nowhere argument. I have all the information I need now.

If no one else has told you, then please allow me to take this this opportunity to thank you for wearing your mask.

You are quite dismissive in response to my last post, but (and forgive my bluntness) you don't really provide a substantive counter-argument to... anything. Just a series of conclusory "takes." You say I'm being disingenuous, using a "confusion" tactic, and use an "apples to astronauts" analogy. I deny all of this. I am quite genuine in my loathing of mask mandates. I support other's decision to ignore them. I listed a series problems (very generally) I have with trusting the covid-related reporting and the government's response. But you have heard it all before? I strongly doubt it. As for my example, can you tell me what mechanism(s) would stop the "STD elimination program" I described? My point is that I am very concerned that we are now reduced to: Successful media hype and fear-mongering + declaration of a "health emergency" = whatever protocols officials in power desire. What is stopping them? As to slippery slopes, do you think a mandatory covid vaccine is a real possibility? That would be the likely next step given our trajectory.

As far as you suggestion to search the internet... can I also suggest you broaden your search to include some outsider perspectives? We all have our agendas. Google has some of the most ambiguous agendas ever known to mankind. (I am assuming you statistical source is google.)

Perhaps there is too large of gap to cross here. You wouldn't know me if we passed on the street- mask or no mask. And there is little reason to listen to a stranger when so many others are in agreement with you. But I do not think you have really interrogated your facts as well as you suppose. Allow me to end this post with a short bit background and one simple point. Stanley Milgram (you probably have been exposed to him at some point) did a series of studies in the 1960s that showed the majority of participants would apply an apparently lethal shock to someone else if instructed to do so by "the doctor." Up to two-thirds is some situations. Milgram wrote about these studies years latter. He wrote that he was deeply concerned that the United States did not appear to have much resistance to tyranny. Many commentators at the time were asking what it was about the German people that allowed Hitler to rise to power. Milgram pointed out that the same dynamic exploited by Hitler was also alive and well in the United States. Here is my simple point: There is evidence that the majority of Americans will submit their will to a medical authority- up to and including bringing harm to others. What would make anyone sure that they are beating the odds? An obedience based on a robustly-interrogated rational consent and not the fear of social, legal, and economic repercussions?

[LeDoux]

Well this is some grade-A pedantic gobbledygook. Then you masterfully continue your obfuscation with your "analogy" -- in this case, a ridiculous strawman argument about safe sex. Well done -- looks like you recently misunderstood some philosophy book and now go around stroking your chin and slyly dropping "moral imperative" in every other conversation. Just delightful.

Lots of hostility here, but your post doesn't even rise to criticism. You are accusing me of employing one logical fallacy while blatantly indulging another. Is it too much to ask to deal with my claim directly and not to just unflatteringly characterize me with figments from your imagination?

And yes, I would recommend reading "philosophy books" to almost anyone. I'd start with Bacon and Descartes to get a handle on our modern predicament.

[RiverRat13]

Ohio's 7-day average for positive tests continues to decline. Down to 5.6%. So that is good news.

[757690]

You are quite dismissive in response to my last post, but (and forgive my bluntness) you don't really provide a substantive counter-argument to... anything. Just a series of conclusory "takes." You say I'm being disingenuous, using a "confusion" tactic, and use an "apples to astronauts" analogy. I deny all of this. I am quite genuine in my loathing of mask mandates. I support other's decision to ignore them. I listed a series problems (very generally) I have with trusting the covid-related reporting and the government's response. But you have heard it all before? I strongly doubt it. As for my example, can you tell me what mechanism(s) would stop the "STD elimination program" I described? My point is that I am very concerned that we are now reduced to: Successful media hype and fear-mongering + declaration of a "health emergency" = whatever protocols officials in power desire. What is stopping them? As to slippery slopes, do you think a mandatory covid vaccine is a real possibility? That would be the likely next step given our trajectory.

As far as you suggestion to search the internet... can I also suggest you broaden your search to include some outsider perspectives? We all have our agendas. Google has some of the most ambiguous agendas ever known to mankind. (I am assuming you statistical source is google.)

Perhaps there is too large of gap to cross here. You wouldn't know me if we passed on the street- mask or no mask. And there is little reason to listen to a stranger when so many others are in agreement with you. But I do not think you have really interrogated your facts as well as you suppose. Allow me to end this post with a short bit background and one simple point. Stanley Milgram (you probably have been exposed to him at some point) did a series of studies in the 1960s that showed the majority of participants would apply an apparently lethal shock to someone else if instructed to do so by "the doctor." Up to two-thirds is some situations. Milgram wrote about these studies years latter. He wrote that he was deeply concerned that the United States did not appear to have much resistance to tyranny. Many commentators at the time were asking what it was about the German people that allowed Hitler to rise to power. Milgram pointed out that the same dynamic exploited by Hitler was also alive and well in the United States. Here is my simple point: There is evidence that the majority of Americans will submit their will to a medical authority- up to and including bringing harm to others. What would make anyone sure that they are beating the odds? An obedience based on a robustly-interrogated rational consent and not the fear of social, legal, and economic repercussions?

There is no logic connection between the fact that people will listen to a doctor or any authority figure no matter what is ordered, and the validity of the advice of doctors. Zero connection. In fact, one could argue that people accept the advice of doctors because historically, doctors have been exceptionally reliable with their advice.

But if you don’t trust doctors, you don’t have to. Doctors and disease experts rarely give their own opinion, they just provide the results of their research with the most logical conclusions sometimes attached. Anyone who is searching for the truth can simply examine the research, which is alway given with excruciating detail, and judge for themselves. Any simpleton can reject out of hand what they find inconvenient.

Look at the actual data. It is overwhelming and convincing to anyone with an open mind. The most convincing data is the comparison of regions that mandated masks and regions that didn’t. The numbers are clear. The former has significantly lower Covid cases and deaths than the latter. By a large margin. There are many more research projects that reveal the same evidence. There are zero that reveal the opposite. As I said, the evidence is overwhelming.

You can deny it if you want, but doing so puts you in the same group as the climate change deniers or the flat earth society.

[SteelSD]

You are quite dismissive in response to my last post, but (and forgive my bluntness) you don't really provide a substantive counter-argument to... anything. Just a series of conclusory "takes." You say I'm being disingenuous, using a "confusion" tactic, and use an "apples to astronauts" analogy. I deny all of this. I am quite genuine in my loathing of mask mandates. I support other's decision to ignore them. I listed a series problems (very generally) I have with trusting the covid-related reporting and the government's response. But you have heard it all before? I strongly doubt it. As for my example, can you tell me what mechanism(s) would stop the "STD elimination program" I described? My point is that I am very concerned that we are now reduced to: Successful media hype and fear-mongering + declaration of a "health emergency" = whatever protocols officials in power desire. What is stopping them? As to slippery slopes, do you think a mandatory covid vaccine is a real possibility? That would be the likely next step given our trajectory.

As far as you suggestion to search the internet... can I also suggest you broaden your search to include some outsider perspectives? We all have our agendas. Google has some of the most ambiguous agendas ever known to mankind. (I am assuming you statistical source is google.)

Perhaps there is too large of gap to cross here. You wouldn't know me if we passed on the street- mask or no mask. And there is little reason to listen to a stranger when so many others are in agreement with you. But I do not think you have really interrogated your facts as well as you suppose. Allow me to end this post with a short bit background and one simple point. Stanley Milgram (you probably have been exposed to him at some point) did a series of studies in the 1960s that showed the majority of participants would apply an apparently lethal shock to someone else if instructed to do so by "the doctor." Up to two-thirds is some situations. Milgram wrote about these studies years latter. He wrote that he was deeply concerned that the United States did not appear to have much resistance to tyranny. Many commentators at the time were asking what it was about the German people that allowed Hitler to rise to power. Milgram pointed out that the same dynamic exploited by Hitler was also alive and well in the United States. Here is my simple point: There is evidence that the majority of Americans will submit their will to a medical authority- up to and including bringing harm to others. What would make anyone sure that they are beating the odds? An obedience based on a robustly-interrogated rational consent and not the fear of social, legal, and economic repercussions?

[NachoMan]

Good lord. The guy brings up the Milgram experiment as if it isn't one of the most famous experiments ever run, then proceeds to use at as an anti-science cudgel. All wrapped up in an endless barrage of truly mind-numbing gibberish. Outstanding work in pseudo-intellectualism.