Covid-19, Part VII - Staying On Topic...

[BernieCarbo]

In Germany if someone dies of a heart attack while on a ventilator fighting COVID does that count as a COVID death or heart attack death? If it counts as a heart attack death it sounds like the Germans are doing it wrong to me.

They look at the patient and see if the Covid caused the heart failure, or if it was just a person with Covid that tested positive. If you look at Belgium or France, they are much more lenient and count anyone who was even suspected of having Covid and as a result they have a much higher rate. The whole thing is a moving target, and final numbers will definitely be recalculated.

But, even in Germany, if a person is in a nursing home and tests positive and dies, that is counted as a covid death. But if a person was living at home and goes to the hospital for some reason and dies and it is found out later that he tested positive, that won't count. This happened recently to my brother in law's neighbor who was in her mid nineties with bone cancer, and she finally failed and had to go to the hospital. When he talked to her family afterwards, they said the death certificate stated cancer, as it should.

At the end of the day, we'll have to do a deep analysis of excess deaths to really know what happened, and posting graphs and charts is not really helpful or very telling right now. But hopefully it will also be a wake-up call in this country on how we care for the elderly and how our policies encourage obesity and diabetes in the young.

It's no secret that we screwed up testing in a big way, and we value privacy much more than other countries so contact tracing will never work, but if anyone takes the emotion out of it and looks at the actual people who died, it is clear who we failed the most. My daughter is a combat medic and was one of soldiers that went to a nursing home to help sanitize and assist the staff, and she was appalled at the general cleanliness, and this wasn't some slum nursing home. We can do better.

[RedTeamGo!]

If someone is dying of pancreatic cancer, but they catch pneumonia and that's the last straw, does that go down as a cancer death or a pneumonia death? Never really thought about it.

Not a doctor but I would guess “complications from pneumonia while fighting pancreatic cancer.”

So, both. Just like a heart attack while fighting COVID should be both.

[RedsManRick]

Not a doctor but I would guess “complications from pneumonia while fighting pancreatic cancer.”

So, both. Just like a heart attack while fighting COVID should be both.

One thing to describe it narratively. Different thing entirely to have a code for it in a database and to have those codes applied consistently across the myriad complex medical scearios.

[757690]

For the record, the way that Germany counts Covid deaths also was done in some US states. It is true there is no uniformity over how deaths or even cases are counted and there will be an adjustment at some point when a true analytic analysis of all the data is done.

However, this would affect the numbers by percentage points, maybe double digit percentage points. The US has close to 5 times as many deaths than Germany after you factor in population. There is no way the way they count deaths accounts for that difference. The numbers are clear on this.

[westofyou]

One thing to describe it narratively. Different thing entirely to have a code for it in a database and to have those codes applied consistently across the myriad complex medical scearios.

ICD-10 codes are real - https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/icd/icd10cm.htm

[LeDoux]

Is nobody bothered by this, really?:

Yeah, man. I realized the other day that recent news has been like the plot of a Deus Ex game. Its hard to know what to think of all this.

[mth123]

I've had some (very mild) symptoms for a couple of days so I went and got tested yesterday. I found a place that was pretty easy and fast, but I had to look around. There are lots of places that want to charge a lot of money and others that seemed a huge hassle. A friend referred me to an easy place. I had to drive a bit, but it was really simple and they may charge my insurance, but no cost to me.

The test itself was pretty easy. I didn't leave my car. I phoned when I arrived, gave them some basic health and personal info (name, address, DOB, preferred pharmacy, insurance info, telephone and e-mail) and what my symptoms are. After about 20 minutes a nurse?? came out and put a swab up each nostril for about 5 seconds (one after the other, not at the same time). It wasn't painful but wasn't comfortable either. It gave me the sensation of needing to blow my nose which I did when it was over and then it was like it never happened. Then I simply drove away. I'm waiting for results. It will be 4 to 7 days, so I'm quarantined for now.

If anyone is nervous about getting tested, don't be, just find the right place to get it done. It doesn't hurt even though it looks like they are poking your brain or searching around for Jimmy Hoffa in there, and its over in less than 15 seconds. They need to do something about the turn around time and something about the places trying to get rich off of you, but the test itself is nothing to be afraid of.

[Falls City Beer]

They look at the patient and see if the Covid caused the heart failure, or if it was just a person with Covid that tested positive. If you look at Belgium or France, they are much more lenient and count anyone who was even suspected of having Covid and as a result they have a much higher rate. The whole thing is a moving target, and final numbers will definitely be recalculated.

But, even in Germany, if a person is in a nursing home and tests positive and dies, that is counted as a covid death. But if a person was living at home and goes to the hospital for some reason and dies and it is found out later that he tested positive, that won't count. This happened recently to my brother in law's neighbor who was in her mid nineties with bone cancer, and she finally failed and had to go to the hospital. When he talked to her family afterwards, they said the death certificate stated cancer, as it should.

At the end of the day, we'll have to do a deep analysis of excess deaths to really know what happened, and posting graphs and charts is not really helpful or very telling right now. But hopefully it will also be a wake-up call in this country on how we care for the elderly and how our policies encourage obesity and diabetes in the young.

It's no secret that we screwed up testing in a big way, and we value privacy much more than other countries so contact tracing will never work, but if anyone takes the emotion out of it and looks at the actual people who died, it is clear who we failed the most. My daughter is a combat medic and was one of soldiers that went to a nursing home to help sanitize and assist the staff, and she was appalled at the general cleanliness, and this wasn't some slum nursing home. We can do better.

I appreciate your more nuanced and well-informed takes on this topic. Honestly.

[M2]

Teens and tweens spread the Rona just as easily as adults (from a Korean study of 65,000 people) - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/h...n-schools.html.

[M2]

Six students and three staff members at North Paulding (GA) High School test positive for COVID - https://abcnews.go.com/US/people-tes...ry?id=72263772. This is the school that became infamous when the picture of its crowded hallways went national.

[Roy Tucker]

In other plague news...

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-china-53325988

[Rojo]

Different thing entirely to have a code for it in a database and to have those codes applied consistently across the myriad complex medical scearios.

And then throw it up on a dashboard you broadcast into peoples living rooms daily.

[Rojo]

It's no secret that we screwed up testing in a big way, and we value privacy much more than other countries so contact tracing will never work, but if anyone takes the emotion out of it and looks at the actual people who died, it is clear who we failed the most. My daughter is a combat medic and was one of soldiers that went to a nursing home to help sanitize and assist the staff, and she was appalled at the general cleanliness, and this wasn't some slum nursing home. We can do better.

For all the accusations i've taken about my heartlessness, I think the Covid panic mongers are missing this. We're arguing about schools where nobody gets sick and masks that probably do little to nothing. Meanwhile almost all the deaths are of the elderly, half of them in care homes.

[M2]

Six students and three staff members at North Paulding (GA) High School test positive for COVID - https://abcnews.go.com/US/people-tes...ry?id=72263772. This is the school that became infamous when the picture of its crowded hallways went national.

And now North Paulding is temporarily closed - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia...e-coronavirus/. We've given stupid every chance to pull us out of this nosedive and it just doesn't work.

[Rojo]

And now North Paulding is temporarily closed - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia...e-coronavirus/. We've given stupid every chance to pull us out of this nosedive and it just doesn't work.

What nosedive? Deaths have been falling rapidly since early April. The overall death rate is normal.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/index.htm