Why Can’t The Reds Develop Quality Relievers?

[RedTeamGo!]

I just watched Cleveland win their game tonight and reliever after reliever came in and went after hitters and got outs.

I’ve been watching both cleveland and Cinci for a few years now and the differences are stark. The Indians just seem to develop quality relievers that go after hitters and succeed. The reds keep going with the Lorenzens and Robert Stephensons of the world, and either they are bad or the reds are just awful at developing relievers.

What’s the story here? I honesty can’t figure it out. Is it talent? Is it poor development? Is it both?

[Wonderful Monds]

They’re just better at developing pitching in general, honestly. Who’ve the Reds developed recently? Luis Castillo from AA up?

[bm1475]

One of the most frustrating things about the Reds over the last five years or so (outside of the obvious) is seeing seemingly every other team just conjuring multiple 23-year-old flamethrowing relievers out of thin air while the Reds bullpens were... well, the Reds bullpens.

[757690]

It starts with drafting. The Reds have been terrible at drafting after the first few rounds, and that is when most relievers are taken.

The Reds also have a philosophy of using high round picks to draft big arms for the pen, and try to develop them into long term answers. That has not worked out well.

Other teams draft a bunch of pitchers with one good pitch in the lower rounds, and hope one or two of the makes it to the majors each year. They aren’t quality arms, but the goal is to keep churning them out, since they don’t last long.

[DocRed]

I think they are really good at identifying talent. I mean they get rid of Bauer and Kluber and somehow their young pitchers are even better than them.

[BCubb2003]

How quickly we forget Aroldis Chapman.

But yeah, Jim Bowden used to develop nasty bullpens and awful starters. Some teams develop major league relievers. The Reds try to develop major league starters, and the relievers are the ones who couldn’t be major league starters.

[WrongVerb]

The Reds develop relievers, and that's the problem. They divide pitchers into starter or reliever very early in the development process. Those pitchers targeted for relief then don't get enough innings to come into their own, so to speak.

Think about it... the only good relievers in recent times developed by the Reds hit the majors as starters: Iglesias, Lorenzen, Garrett, even Cingrani. The ones who didn't make it were relievers all along: Weiss, Kuhnel, Peralta. Micheal Byrne is headed down that same path to failure.

[KronoRed]

The Reds try to develop major league starters, and the relievers are the ones who couldn’t be major league starters.

Yeah, this plan doesn't seem to be working anymore, if it ever really did for the Reds.

[podgejeff_]

I think we're just seeing more fruit from the Buckley era of drafting and development. It's going to take time for the new regime to make changes and draft/develop the new guys.

[Cooper]

They really don't develop players of any sort --it's been an issue for a long time. For years there's been the thought that there was a good minor league system -nobody gets significantly better. I think that might be changing - the last major development was/is Votto and Castillo ---that's one about every 10 years. They have to bring in players that are close to ready, other wise it ain't gonna happen.

[M2]

The Reds develop relievers, and that's the problem. They divide pitchers into starter or reliever very early in the development process. Those pitchers targeted for relief then don't get enough innings to come into their own, so to speak.

Think about it... the only good relievers in recent times developed by the Reds hit the majors as starters: Iglesias, Lorenzen, Garrett, even Cingrani. The ones who didn't make it were relievers all along: Weiss, Kuhnel, Peralta. Micheal Byrne is headed down that same path to failure.

I don't think that's quite it. Probably more that the ones who enter the organization as relievers already were further along the washout path. The ones who convert from starters were better prospects from the jump. The Reds' best reliever prospect at this moment might be Tony Santillan. Drop his worst pitch, let him go full gas in short stints and he could be a handful.

[westofyou]

They don't convert guys well, they don't grab diamonds in the rough and polish them well. Look at Drew Pomeranz, he's on the Padres throwing relief now and has a three year contract and is throwing gas. The Brewers got him last season and made him a reliever, his K rate is way up and is BB/K ratio is better. He in fact is a better pitcher. These are the sort of guys the Reds need to build, low cost, high ceiling. They just need the guys to see something they can fix, in the past that's been lacking. We shall see what goes down with the new coaching approaches

[klw]

On the flip side, I have always wondered how San Diego always has such a great pen. It seems like every year they produce a number of great and successful relievers even after they move a few of them at the trade deadline. Even with turnover, the next year they have a bunch of great arms.

[WrongVerb]

I don't think that's quite it. Probably more that the ones who enter the organization as relievers already were further along the washout path. The ones who convert from starters were better prospects from the jump. The Reds' best reliever prospect at this moment might be Tony Santillan. Drop his worst pitch, let him go full gas in short stints and he could be a handful.

That's what I'm saying -- the Reds depend too much on relievers in the minors actually succeeding at the major league level. They should be targeting starters who would make better relievers at the major league level, then develop them as starters until they wash out. The Reds should be looking at guys like Scroeler, Naughton, and, as you mention, Santillan as future relievers, but not actually converting them yet. Wait until they begin the transition to the major leagues before shifting them to the bullpen.

[podgejeff_]

On the flip side, I have always wondered how San Diego always has such a great pen. It seems like every year they produce a number of great and successful relievers even after they move a few of them at the trade deadline. Even with turnover, the next year they have a bunch of great arms.

Something tells me that enormous, offense-killing ballpark they play in might have something to do with it.