Dick Williams Needs To Resign

[Wonderful Monds]

I will say this, if the Reds go through another 2014-2018 stretch where they are that awful and aren’t really trying without having a couple winning seasons and serious playoff runs before they go through another 5 year tanking cycle, I think I’m probably going to completely lose interest.

The league desperately needs to change something up to de-incentivize tanking, it’s not good for the sport to have half the teams in baseball giving up before the season even starts.

[Tom Servo]

The league desperately needs to change something up to de-incentivize tanking, it’s not good for the sport to have half the teams in baseball giving up before the season even starts.

Yeah, baseball has unquestionably gotten worse all around since tanking became common place.

I kind of think the Reds had the fear of god put into them by the 2018 attendance numbers, they realized that they risked leaving the Cincinnati conscious entirely if they didn't make some real changes. I imagine the Indians are probably the model they'd like to emulate.

[757690]

Alf $7M, Garcia $5M, Vlad $5M, penalty level was a bit under $6M. Remember they had to pay double on spending above the penalty level. So they roughly spent $6M + ($11M x 2) = $28M

I was referring to 2016 specifically when they spent big internationally. The cut payroll by $25M and spent $28M on international prospects. Do you think the ownership group would be willing to maintain the payroll and spend big on free agents? I certainly don't. This ownership group has yet to show that kind of commitment to spending. What they did with the payroll savings the following seasons I don't know, but I have to assume the overall spending budget was decreased by ownership as a result of poor attendance and a poor team in 2016. So that is why I have a belief spending on the team would have taken away from spending on prospects and internal infrastructure.

Either way, I just can't see where the Reds are in a better spot in 2020 just because we signed some fill-in pitchers back in 2016-2017. Maybe Finnegan and Reed have different career trajectories, but let's not forget their ultimate results are par for the course in terms of the Reds pitching development history.

We are just going to have to disagree on this. I never believe owners when they cry poor. I mean, the Reds drastically increased payroll in 2019 and 2020, by $35M in 2019 and another $30M in 2020. It seems they have the money when they want to spend it.

[Wonderful Monds]

As an aside, since his name was just brought up ITT, does Brandon Finnegan still exist or did he fall into the same void Ozzie Smith did back in the day?

[Wonderful Monds]

Yeah, baseball has unquestionably gotten worse all around since tanking became common place.

I kind of think the Reds had the fear of god put into them by the 2018 attendance numbers, they realized that they risked leaving the Cincinnati conscious entirely if they didn't make some real changes. I imagine the Indians are probably the model they'd like to emulate.

Which really shouldn’t be that hard to sustain as long as they spend most seasons the way they have the last year or so. There’s no reason really why they shouldn’t be able to have at least a decent team on the field most of the time. None of that “opening day starter Scott Feldman”, re-animate the corpse of Bronson Arroyo business.

[bm1475]

We are just going to have to disagree on this. I never believe owners when they cry poor. I mean, the Reds drastically increased payroll in 2019 and 2020, by $35M in 2019 and another $30M in 2020. It seems they have the money when they want to spend it.

He didn't really say they cried poor (as in didn't have the money), more that they weren't willing to spend that much. Didn't it come out that they paid a dividend to the minority owners sometime within that terrible four-year stretch? Plus the shady "we have a TV deal but won't say how much it's worth" thing. They HAVE money, it doesn't mean they will spend it.

[REDREAD]

A new closer can make up the difference of 83 runs per season?

He’s likely pitching 70 innings.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No, his argument is that an impact closer can reduce that 83 runs deficit more than an additional hitter.
In other words, a closer impacts run differential more than an extra hitter.
I am not saying I agree or disagree, but that's what he said.

[Griffey012]

We are just going to have to disagree on this. I never believe owners when they cry poor. I mean, the Reds drastically increased payroll in 2019 and 2020, by $35M in 2019 and another $30M in 2020. It seems they have the money when they want to spend it.

I agree with that statement.

I don't believe them at all either, but that doesn't mean they don't routinely cry poor. I mean we saw it all off-season this year from owners across the league. But regardless of what you think about the owners, a GM is largely stuck with the budget he is given by the owners, he doesn't get to just grab the owners check book and spend away. Yeah, he can present his case for why a team should spend more, but was there really a convincing argument to spend more to put lipstick on a pig? Heck, they wouldn't even spend a few million more to replace Ludwick on a loaded team.

[foster15]

We are just going to have to disagree on this. I never believe owners when they cry poor. I mean, the Reds drastically increased payroll in 2019 and 2020, by $35M in 2019 and another $30M in 2020. It seems they have the money when they want to spend it.

I feel the same way. However, it could be one of those things where they feel they can up payroll 10 or 15 million a year but choose to put that money in a piggy bank so that they can make a bigger splash for the fans every 5 years or so. Or of course they may look at it as spending the money when their years of being in contention make their needs clearer.

But I agree that the Reds have made it policy that they make most of their money on league profit sharing through TV contracts and feel it's safer than spending every season trying to put a competitive team on the field more consistently. And I'm sure that have statistics that shows that a couple years of exciting competitive baseball spills over to 2 or 3 seasons of crappy ball when it comes to drawing fans to the park. I saw on Reds message boards that a lot of fans had high expectations in 2015 when if you evaluated things from the start, you knew it was going to be a year of pretending to try and then having a fire sale at the trade deadline.

[REDREAD]

I would make the argument that not fully tanking hurt the overall tanking effort. They had multiple chances to flip guys at the TDL in lost seasons for building blocks and chose to not do it. Then there was the LA trade where they gave up prospects (Gray/Downs) in a deal that netted them little more than the value Puig provided as a secondary piece in the deal for Bauer (TT being the main piece). They also made a handful of deals that didn't provide much in the end (Cueto, Frazier, Chapman).
.

Kind of ironic that the best rebuild trade they did in the tanking era is likely Leake-Duvall-Sims.
Leake got more than Cueto, Frazier and Chapman combined. Well, I guess there's a chance Reed amounts to something, but that's a long shot.

Just pointing out an oddity, not attacking anyone.

[OGB]

The Cubs started taking in 2012. They won 97 games in 2015. The Astros started their tank in 2011. They won 86 games in 2015. They both had a stacked farm system even before then.

The Reds are already one year behind the Astros, and two years behind the Cubs, if they are competitive this year. Those guys you mentioned are at least two years away from even making the majors.

It’s nearly impossible to argue that the tanking was worth it, given the current shape of the Reds.

I don't really have anything good to say about the Reds organizational philosophy from 2014-2018.
I just don't pin that all on Dick Williams. I put it largely on ownership.
Instead of a full on rebuild they tried a half butt approach and it backfired tremendously.
I still feel that given the constraints he was working with, Williams made a lot of good moves in that timeframe, including a pretty radical overhaul of the philosophical direction of the organization. Instead of languishing behind other clubs with their use of analytics and modern tech, the Reds are now in the vanguard in certain areas.
Adding Boddy to the organization is a move that may take some time to show results, but I'm of the opinion it could end up being one of the best moves this club has made in the 21st century.

[RedTeamGo!]

I blame the loss yesterday on Patrick Bateman calling me out in the game thread. Moments later the Dick Williams Bullpen Catastrophe blew the game.

Let’s all boo Patrick Bateman.

Boo.

Boooo.

Booooooooooooooooo.

[Kc61]

Bullpen should improve as they learn more about all the guys and their current ability/skill set. Maybe it’ll totally turn around for the second half of the season. I wish the pen only good things. I’m a fan of several of the guys.

But I can’t accept the current organizational philosophy toward the pen. Williams, Krall, ownership, whomever, the current plan is a mistake.

In 2020, strong bullpen is part of the team’s infrastructure. It’s not exciting but essential. Have to prioritize it with more spending on proven guys, drafting and development of dynamic pen arms. Need to prioritize it.

[RedTeamGo!]

Bullpen should improve as they learn more about all the guys and their current ability/skill set.

Maybe it’ll completely turn around for the second half of the season. I wish the pen only good things.

But I’ll never accept the current organizational philosophy toward the pen. Williams, Krall, ownership, whomever, it’s not an accident, it’s a philosophy and a considered decision.

Well, the bullpen can’t get worse.

Wait...can it?

DUN DUN DUNNNNN

[CaiGuy]

I will say this, if the Reds go through another 2014-2018 stretch where they are that awful and aren’t really trying without having a couple winning seasons and serious playoff runs before they go through another 5 year tanking cycle, I think I’m probably going to completely lose interest.

The league desperately needs to change something up to de-incentivize tanking, it’s not good for the sport to have half the teams in baseball giving up before the season even starts.

Just plugging my reverse draft idea.

Non-playoff teams draft by best-to-worst records, and then playoff teams draft last.

Gives non-competitors something to actually play for or spend money on.