Reds Secret? Tons Of Spin

[Ron Madden]

The Reds have amassed a stable of high-spin arms, and they sure look like they're targeting and developing these pitchers for a reason. Their pitchers' ability to harness their high-spin, high-movement arsenals is certainly playing a big part in Cincinnati's emergence as a strikeout staff.

https://www.mlb.com/amp/news/reds-pi...mpression=true

[foster15]

Okay, got to admit, this is something I know nothing about, spin rate.

Is it measured on every single pitch and how?

How severe are the changes in mechanics to make the rate go up? I know that it can take at least a season, and most likely more for a pitcher to learn and develop a new pitch. Is upping spin rate easier? Is it less disruptive to a pitching style?

And lastly, does this explain the Reds lack of urgency to the pitching staff, bullpen in particular, during the off-season? Are they counting on upping the spin rate to improve their bullpen rather than acquiring new arms?

[bm1475]

Rhetorical pet peeve in baseball writing: every pitcher is an "arm," every position player is a "bat"

[RedTeamGo!]

That’s what she said

[wolfboy]

Okay, got to admit, this is something I know nothing about, spin rate.

Is it measured on every single pitch and how?

How severe are the changes in mechanics to make the rate go up? I know that it can take at least a season, and most likely more for a pitcher to learn and develop a new pitch. Is upping spin rate easier? Is it less disruptive to a pitching style?

And lastly, does this explain the Reds lack of urgency to the pitching staff, bullpen in particular, during the off-season? Are they counting on upping the spin rate to improve their bullpen rather than acquiring new arms?

This is a decent write up from a few years back on it: https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/20...t-we-know-now/

Here's an article if you're interested in high speed cameras: https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...ound-baseball/

[mth123]

Rhetorical pet peeve in baseball writing: every pitcher is an "arm," every position player is a "bat"

Some position players aren't bats. They're fleas. Bats eat fleas don't they?

[bm1475]

Some position players aren't bats. They're fleas. Bats eat fleas don't they?

I was going to make some lame joke about Willy Taveras getting released rather than going to the Bats, but I guess he made it through an entire season in the big leagues with the Reds.

They say women who give birth have their minds erase the memory as a biological mechanism because they'd never have more than one baby if they remembered how awful childbirth is. I guess I now realize it also happens to Reds fans. I remember Taveras, but not that he made it through an entire season.

[RED VAN HOT]

https://www.mlb.com/amp/news/reds-pi...mpression=true

The article also shows Sims as one of the high spin rate pitchers. I wonder if he has taken a big step forward this year. I always thought of him as a curve ball first pitcher. I wonder if high FB spin rate is new this year. He may yet become a starter, as he was considered to be when the Braves drafted him in the first round.

Also, answers my question posed earlier concerning why Raley. High spin rate on his curveball.

[podgejeff_]

Isn't developing spin rate a Driveline thing?

[Ron Madden]

Isn't developing spin rate a Driveline thing?

Yes it is.

[jup]

Okay, got to admit, this is something I know nothing about, spin rate.

Is it measured on every single pitch and how?

How severe are the changes in mechanics to make the rate go up? I know that it can take at least a season, and most likely more for a pitcher to learn and develop a new pitch. Is upping spin rate easier? Is it less disruptive to a pitching style?

And lastly, does this explain the Reds lack of urgency to the pitching staff, bullpen in particular, during the off-season? Are they counting on upping the spin rate to improve their bullpen rather than acquiring new arms?

STICKY STUFF

That is about all you need to know

[jup]

Okay, got to admit, this is something I know nothing about, spin rate.

Is it measured on every single pitch and how?

How severe are the changes in mechanics to make the rate go up? I know that it can take at least a season, and most likely more for a pitcher to learn and develop a new pitch. Is upping spin rate easier? Is it less disruptive to a pitching style?

And lastly, does this explain the Reds lack of urgency to the pitching staff, bullpen in particular, during the off-season? Are they counting on upping the spin rate to improve their bullpen rather than acquiring new arms?

So to get kind of technical, spin is a tangential force. The more the force being applied to the ball becomes tangential, rather than through the center of mass (linear), the higher the spin rate. So in general, think of the force being applied to the ball split in two parts. One would be through the center of the ball and would accelerate the ball linearly towards the plate - that is MPH. The other part of the force is around the edge of the ball and causes it to spin. So if you ever spun a top, the top doesn't go across the room, it kind of stays in one place and spins, because all the force from the string you pull is applied tangentially. Where if you grabbed the top and threw it, it would fly across the room rather than stay in one place and spin.


So the harder you throw, with the force being at the same angle (fingertips at release), the higher the spin rate will be, because the amount of total force on the ball has increased. So when studying pitchers, you find that spin rate increases about 40 to 60 rpm per mph increase in velocity up in the 85 to 95 mph range of throwers.

But each pitchers delivery is unique, so the exact angle the ball leaves the fingertips changes from pitcher to pitcher. And it is that angle that determines how close or far the force being applied to the ball by the fingers is to being tangential, and thus the amount of the force that goes into spinning the ball versus imparting linear velocity towards the plate.

In all cases though, because the fingers are moving downward relative to the direction the ball is traveling towards the plate at ball release, some of the force being applied goes into spinning the ball. Unless of course it is a knuckleball, which is thrown to try and get zero spin by applying the force equally on all sides be using all five fingers.

Different pitchers release the ball with their fingers at slightly different angles, and that causes the amount of force going into spinning the ball to vary from pitcher to pitcher. And it is their individual delivery mechanics and physical attributes that determine that angle.

The best way to increase spin rate is have the ball stay on the fingers a slight bit longer, because the angle of the fingers at ball release tends towards tangential with increasing time. So more force goes into the spinning of the ball and creates a higher spin rate. And you don't change mechanics to do that. You apply sticky stuff to the fingers, so they adhere to the ball a slight bit longer. And we are talking ten thousandths of a second. But it definitely changes spin rate.

Typical jump for a 90 mph thrower using a "good" sticky substance will be somewhere in the range of 300 rpm on a FB at the same velocity with no sticky substance.

[podgejeff_]

I'm wondering if this also helps understand recent draft choices.

Maybe this is something Christian Roa and Nick Lodolo are bringing to the table.

It also seems like both pitchers are bringing a full arsenal. Roa and Lodolo bring a lot of advanced pitches to the table ala Bauer. It's not like the days of Buckley where we'd draft guys with two solid pitches hoping they could make a third.

[RedsBrick]

So to get kind of technical, spin is a tangential force. The more the force being applied to the ball becomes tangential, rather than through the center of mass (linear), the higher the spin rate. So in general, think of the force being applied to the ball split in two parts. One would be through the center of the ball and would accelerate the ball linearly towards the plate - that is MPH. The other part of the force is around the edge of the ball and causes it to spin. So if you ever spun a top, the top doesn't go across the room, it kind of stays in one place and spins, because all the force from the string you pull is applied tangentially. Where if you grabbed the top and threw it, it would fly across the room rather than stay in one place and spin.


So the harder you throw, with the force being at the same angle (fingertips at release), the higher the spin rate will be, because the amount of total force on the ball has increased. So when studying pitchers, you find that spin rate increases about 40 to 60 rpm per mph increase in velocity up in the 85 to 95 mph range of throwers.

But each pitchers delivery is unique, so the exact angle the ball leaves the fingertips changes from pitcher to pitcher. And it is that angle that determines how close or far the force being applied to the ball by the fingers is to being tangential, and thus the amount of the force that goes into spinning the ball versus imparting linear velocity towards the plate.

In all cases though, because the fingers are moving downward relative to the direction the ball is traveling towards the plate at ball release, some of the force being applied goes into spinning the ball. Unless of course it is a knuckleball, which is thrown to try and get zero spin by applying the force equally on all sides be using all five fingers.

Different pitchers release the ball with their fingers at slightly different angles, and that causes the amount of force going into spinning the ball to vary from pitcher to pitcher. And it is their individual delivery mechanics and physical attributes that determine that angle.

The best way to increase spin rate is have the ball stay on the fingers a slight bit longer, because the angle of the fingers at ball release tends towards tangential with increasing time. So more force goes into the spinning of the ball and creates a higher spin rate. And you don't change mechanics to do that. You apply sticky stuff to the fingers, so they adhere to the ball a slight bit longer. And we are talking ten thousandths of a second. But it definitely changes spin rate.

Typical jump for a 90 mph thrower using a "good" sticky substance will be somewhere in the range of 300 rpm on a FB at the same velocity with no sticky substance.

Solid work on this post! Pedro Martinez used to talk about how he held the ball and whipped it at the end of his fingertips...giving it that extra spin.

The stats probably meet in the middle somewhere, but strikeouts increase year over year. The last time they didn't increase from one year to the next was 2005.

2005 - 30,644
2019 - 43,823

Are the strikeouts occurring because of spin rate or approach at the plate. Maybe both?

The vast majority of players don't change their approach at the plate with 2 strikes in today's game. It's still a grip-and-rip approach. They also seem to take pitches that are close with 2 strikes. Suarez did it last night. Pitch definitely looked like a ball but it was close and ended up being a backwards K. Old school approach would've been to try to get a bat on it and live for another pitch. Just seems to be the evolution of the game.

[wheels]

Is there any chance pitchers have found a "sticky substance" that enhances spin rate that has yet to be discovered by The Powers that Be?