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Thread: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

  1. #31
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    That’s a difference of opinion, not a difference of fact on your first point about the troop withdrawal.

    Aoun is extremely culpable in the government incompetence that led to this explosion. Maybe that’s why he’s floating the bomb story without any evidence?


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  3. #32
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Update!




    A brief anecdote then my point. Last year one of my oldest friends (+30 years) was working with a large group on planning the US withdrawal. He is an officer in the Navy. An honest guy. He was not in charge of thesis group, but he was one of the few people that knew that plan, the risks, the contingencies very well. After this plan was complete, Trump announced the withdrawal. Many of my friend's family members contacted him and informed him of what irrational decisions Trump was making. My friend informed them that he was part of making the plan. It was a solid plan derived from all the best intelligence available. He was acting on their recommendations. His family ignored all of this. The preferred their sources to a direct source- their own flesh and blood.

    I went back and looked at the reporting from the time. Guess what I found!

    [URL="https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/politics/trump-syria-withdrawal-scramble/index.html"]

    The lead reporter is the same as from the article you cite. Barbara Starr. CNN Pentagon Correspondent. Same vague sourcing. In this case I know from my own, much more reliable source, that she is mischaracterizing the withdrawal as rash and sudden. So I have at least one example of CNN's Starr being misleading and unreliable.

    Update 2




    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...mb/ar-BB17H8xM

    - - - Updated - - -



    Answered my own question!
    You realize that your friend, by being involved in the planning, is a biased source? Far less credible than Barbara Starr who has decades of reporting and dozens of high ranking military connections.
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  4. #33
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Beirut explosion: former port worker says fireworks stored in hangar

    Dozens of bags of fireworks were stored in the same hangar as thousands of tonnes of ammonium nitrate at Beirut’s port and may have been a decisive factor in igniting the explosive chemical compound that fuelled Tuesday’s huge explosion, a former port worker and other sources have told the Guardian.

    As angry Lebanese plan a major protest in central Beirut on Saturday, scrutiny has focused on how 2,750 tonnes of the dangerous material could have been stored so close to residential neighbourhoods for years – despite repeated warnings of the risk it posed.
    Gratitude + Forgiveness = Happiness

  5. #34
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Update!




    A brief anecdote then my point. Last year one of my oldest friends (+30 years) was working with a large group on planning the US withdrawal. He is an officer in the Navy. An honest guy. He was not in charge of thesis group, but he was one of the few people that knew that plan, the risks, the contingencies very well. After this plan was complete, Trump announced the withdrawal. Many of my friend's family members contacted him and informed him of what irrational decisions Trump was making. My friend informed them that he was part of making the plan. It was a solid plan derived from all the best intelligence available. He was acting on their recommendations. His family ignored all of this. The preferred their sources to a direct source- their own flesh and blood.

    I went back and looked at the reporting from the time. Guess what I found!

    [URL="https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/politics/trump-syria-withdrawal-scramble/index.html"]

    The lead reporter is the same as from the article you cite. Barbara Starr. CNN Pentagon Correspondent. Same vague sourcing. In this case I know from my own, much more reliable source, that she is mischaracterizing the withdrawal as rash and sudden. So I have at least one example of CNN's Starr being misleading and unreliable.

    Update 2




    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...mb/ar-BB17H8xM

    - - - Updated - - -



    Answered my own question!
    I'm curious...what would it take for you to abandon the idea that this was an aggressive attack?

    I mean, for me to accept that idea, I'd want to hear from Lebanese leaders, or a third party (U.N.?) investigation team, that they've got concrete evidence linking a group to the cause of the explosion, or else a credible claim from a known source within a terrorist outfit.
    Gratitude + Forgiveness = Happiness

  6. #35
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    That’s a difference of opinion, not a difference of fact on your first point about the troop withdrawal.

    Aoun is extremely culpable in the government incompetence that led to this explosion. Maybe that’s why he’s floating the bomb story without any evidence?
    I think there is a misunderstanding here. My point had nothing to do with the wisdom of the withdrawal. It was the honest or dishonest reporting concerning the preparedness of the pentagon for the withdrawal. Random sets of Pentagon "officials" may have be confused. But at least some of the Pentagon knew exactly what was happening and why. I was dealing with one report from one reporter. The wisdom of the withdrawal is beyond my abilities to address and would probably belong in the politics forum anyway.

    To your point on Aoun. I have no idea. Maybe he is a bad man. This doesn't not prove whether the port explosion was caused by accident or intentional. I can't ignore everyone who has an ulterior motive. The means no news at all.

  7. #36
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    You realize that your friend, by being involved in the planning, is a biased source? Far less credible than Barbara Starr who has decades of reporting and dozens of high ranking military connections.
    Biased is what way? He was just a "soldier doing his job." You are free to question his account- you never met him. But I, who knew him well, am quite sure. It the simple decision of trusting an old friend over a complete stranger.

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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongVerb View Post
    I'm curious...what would it take for you to abandon the idea that this was an aggressive attack?

    I mean, for me to accept that idea, I'd want to hear from Lebanese leaders, or a third party (U.N.?) investigation team, that they've got concrete evidence linking a group to the cause of the explosion, or else a credible claim from a known source within a terrorist outfit.
    Just to be clear, my position here has that there are two or more possibilities that can't be ruled out. What would rule out aggression? An independent team doing a thorough investigation. What would they do here? residue analysis? crater analysis? satellite data? I don't know. Out of my wheelhouse.

    The catch of course is "independence" of the group. Names that are universally trusted seem very few.

  9. #38
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Biased is what way? He was just a "soldier doing his job." You are free to question his account- you never met him. But I, who knew him well, am quite sure. It the simple decision of trusting an old friend over a complete stranger.
    I am sure he is a trustworthy friend.

    However, as I pointed out, he is involved in the planning. Of course he’s going to say it was well planned. If you asked David Bell about this season, he’s going to say good things about it.

    And Barbara Star is not a complete stranger. She’s a veteran military journalist with an impecable record.
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  10. #39
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    I just wanted to say I have no real opinion either way on any of the subjects being discussed. I do, however, appreciate all opinions on both sides. With that said, I can see each of your points and I want to add that it is horrible that this happened, although I have no feelings on the subsequent discussion of how it happened or any theories. I appreciate your understanding.

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  12. #40
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I am sure he is a trustworthy friend.

    However, as I pointed out, he is involved in the planning. Of course he’s going to say it was well planned. If you asked David Bell about this season, he’s going to say good things about it.

    And Barbara Star is not a complete stranger. She’s a veteran military journalist with an impecable record.
    Sure, but my analogy would be Fay reporting that the clubhouse was "complete disarray" but you happen to know one of players very well. If your old pal Geno Suarez says every is and has been cool, you believe him and suspect Fay.

    I am not saying Star doesn't know her job well. But I do not assume and old journalistic ethics in the modern media ecosystem. That may have always been the case, but if so, it was hidden from me. I do not think the job of a modern journalist is reveal truth motivated by a devotion to truth for truth's sake. There may be exceptions, I don't think Barbara Star is one of them. And yes, this applies to Fox News as much as CNN. I'd like to be wrong, but I think this world is turning it back on the idea that a journalist, judge, scientist or umpire can put aside their perspective and apply objective analysis and judgements- and why even try? I disagree. Perfect objectivity may not be possible, but someone really trying is going to be mountains better than someone who finds the the pursuit of objectivity quaint or obsolete.

  13. #41
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    I just wanted to say I have no real opinion either way on any of the subjects being discussed. I do, however, appreciate all opinions on both sides. With that said, I can see each of your points and I want to add that it is horrible that this happened, although I have no feelings on the subsequent discussion of how it happened or any theories. I appreciate your understanding.
    Yes, this is terrible no matter what. I hope it was a complete accident. Its a bitter tragedy either way. Lots of pain and grief to go around. But if there were bad actors here there are bad actors involved, this may lead to even more tragedies. I hope Lebanon can see a period of peace. That country has been in turmoil, or on the edge of it, my whole life.

  14. #42
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Port Chicago type of mishap
    My mind immediate raced to Halifax - https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....ifax-explosion.
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  15. #43
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    Sure, but my analogy would be Fay reporting that the clubhouse was "complete disarray" but you happen to know one of players very well. If your old pal Geno Suarez says every is and has been cool, you believe him and suspect Fay.

    I am not saying Star doesn't know her job well. But I do not assume and old journalistic ethics in the modern media ecosystem. That may have always been the case, but if so, it was hidden from me. I do not think the job of a modern journalist is reveal truth motivated by a devotion to truth for truth's sake. There may be exceptions, I don't think Barbara Star is one of them. And yes, this applies to Fox News as much as CNN. I'd like to be wrong, but I think this world is turning it back on the idea that a journalist, judge, scientist or umpire can put aside their perspective and apply objective analysis and judgements- and why even try? I disagree. Perfect objectivity may not be possible, but someone really trying is going to be mountains better than someone who finds the the pursuit of objectivity quaint or obsolete.
    Starr specifically said her report was based on talking to “Several military and defense officials”, so it would be like if Fay said heard from several players and Reds staff that the Reds were in disarray, and one front office person you knew said they weren’t. I going to believe what several people say over what one person who has a vested interest says.

    And sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about in your second paragraph.
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  16. #44
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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Starr specifically said her report was based on talking to “Several military and defense officials”, so it would be like if Fay said heard from several players and Reds staff that the Reds were in disarray, and one front office person you knew said they weren’t. I going to believe what several people say over what one person who has a vested interest says.

    And sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about in your second paragraph.
    It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree about the reliability of Barabara Starr's reporting.

    My second paragraph was about the lack of objectivity in professions requiring (at least in theory) objectivity. If you can find it, I'd look at a documentary centered on a Noam Chompsky's book called "Manufacturing Consent." It changed how I viewed media.

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    Re: Massive Explosion in Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by LeDoux View Post
    It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree about the reliability of Barabara Starr's reporting.

    My second paragraph was about the lack of objectivity in professions requiring (at least in theory) objectivity. If you can find it, I'd look at a documentary centered on a Noam Chompsky's book called "Manufacturing Consent." It changed how I viewed media.
    That is a good book, but I think it’s pretty outdated. Media models don’t work that way these days and the internet has kind of rendered that book useless for the most part.


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