What to do w Joey Votto

[mth123]

They built a good team around Votto when Votto was good and they still didn’t win a playoff series.

All before Votto's big extension even started.

[DocRed]

Bad D and slow....another GIDP. Kinda negates any type of OBP he may have.

[faffy42]

Agreed. Not much can be done.
I think he's been hurting more than helping the team for some time.
Hit him 8th?
Bench player?
Just cant rely on his punch and judy half check swings and grounders to the right side 1st and 2nd baseman anymore.

[Old school 1983]

Agreed. Not much can be done.
I think he's been hurting more than helping the team for some time.
Hit him 8th?
Bench player?
Just cant rely on his punch and judy half check swings and grounders to the right side 1st and 2nd baseman anymore.

I know he’s been a high OBP player his whole career. But I wonder if he’d have more success being productive at this point if he quit choking up and just aired it out. He still has power IMO. OBP May go down a bit, but when he hits it, it’ll go.

[klw]

Last year Votto was solid in the 2 spot and abysmal in the leadoff spot: 276/369/432/801 vs 161/288/286/574
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...&year=2019&t=b
This year Votto has been solid in 2 spot and abysmal in the leadoff spot (and 3rd for that matter) 273/400/545/945 vs 136/208/182/390.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...&year=2020&t=b


While it is small sample sizes in the leadoff spot, just stop it and hit the man 2nd already!

[RiverRat13]

When there is a better alternative, I hope the Reds have the courage to bench him. But there isn't a better alternative for now, so you keep playing him.

[Coopdaddy67]

If I remember correctly, he said he hated the idea of batting leadoff awhile back, but would do it if it was in the best interest of the team.

I don't like him batting leadoff either, but it's not like the Reds have a bunch of guys that get on-base at a decent rate. When you live and die by the HR, have to get guys on base ahead of Castellanos, Winker, Suarez and Moustakas.

[mth123]

When there is a better alternative, I hope the Reds have the courage to bench him. But there isn't a better alternative for now, so you keep playing him.

I think I'd just play Davidson against LHP. Let Winker DH and get somebody else in LF (Aquino please). Votto is an old dude and I'm sure his body could use the rest. I still think his funky swing is to compensate for aches and pains. The Reds played a bunch of games in a row at the beginning of the year and Votto changed back during that time. I think the wear and tear caught up to him. Just my theory, but that plan would allow rest for the old guy and improve the defense in the OF while making the team more athletic and giving a look to a player who earned a look last year.

[Cursh14]

I know there's no clean answer... I'm just frustrated. I think days off for Joey would help. If only Bell would play the hot hand, but we're locked in with Joey. He's still above average I suppose but I feel sad saying that.

I have seen the criticism of Bell be not keeping consistency in the lineup while others say he should play the hot hand. This adds to my "Bell is in a no win scenario". Players need to adjust to the shifts and hit!

[foster15]

When there is a better alternative, I hope the Reds have the courage to bench him. But there isn't a better alternative for now, so you keep playing him.

The chicken or the egg argument for me. Do the Reds play Votto because they don't have a better alternative or do the Reds not have a better alternative because they feel obligated to play Votto and his huge contract and don't even look for one? I'd say the latter.

[50YrRedsFan]

First, the jury is still out on Castellanos, Moustakas, and Shogo. I see Cast and Mous as maybe better than an average player, but still not really big impact players. Shogo has had kind of a rough start and may not be much more than a bench player. The Reds issues are the failure to draft and develop young players to augment and eventually take over when the older players do start to fade. IMO, very poor drafting has been a trademark of the Reds. Of all the most recent drafts, Winker is about the only one making any kind of forward progress. Senzel can't stay on the field. Ervin is a bench player at best. And the other bench players are nothing but players no one else wanted. At this point, there isn't much the team can do except play Votto until someone else steps up. When and if that happens is a big unknown.

[faffy42]

I know he’s been a high OBP player his whole career. But I wonder if he’d have more success being productive at this point if he quit choking up and just aired it out. He still has power IMO. OBP May go down a bit, but when he hits it, it’ll go.

Agreed. I think he has over thunk hitting. He has been under a magnifying glass for his whole career. Tinkering. Getting in his own head. If he is ready to HIT, not look at, or check out pitches...just step up to the plate and see ball - hit ball, well imo he has plenty of bat speed, awareness and ability to drive the ball. Just think his mental approach needs to change from looking at pitches to aggresive hitting. I recall him doing that when he started up with the reds and he was a successful hitter. First pitcher agressive hitter if it was there for the taking he did.

[Old school 1983]

Agreed. I think he has over thunk hitting. He has been under a magnifying glass for his whole career. Tinkering. Getting in his own head. If he is ready to HIT, not look at, or check out pitches...just step up to the plate and see ball - hit ball, well imo he has plenty of bat speed, awareness and ability to drive the ball. Just think his mental approach needs to change from looking at pitches to aggresive hitting. I recall him doing that when he started up with the reds and he was a successful hitter. First pitcher agressive hitter if it was there for the taking he did.

There’s being a cerebral player, and there’s being too much in your own head. I think post 2012 Votto has been the latter moreso than the former. His tremendous talent was able to counteract it but as Father Time catches up, it is less and less able to do so. I think he’d do well to simply things and change his approach. Hard to do though given that his approach has lead to so much success in the past.

[aljonesins@aol.]

Still has 3 years left on his deal after 2020 - 75 Mill, Then a 4th year club option w/ 7M buyout.

So, the club is still into him for 82 Million sunk and 3 years of contracted service remaining.


He does not do one thing well on the baseball field anymore.

He can not field, run or throw

He can not hit. He does not create runs. Hit for power or average and is a giant black hole in the lineup.

His OPS is declining 4 years running. His SLG% over his last 300+ Games is .408! FOUR ZERO EIGHT

His SLG .394 so far this year, with 5 xbh in 20 games.


We have all seen how the Reds mis-handle legacy and long terms players, so this situation is going to be an unmitigated disaster. I understand this is a likely controversial take, but the Reds need to DFA him and move on after this season.

He is losing them more games than helping win, and it's going to only get worse. Time to say goodbye, sorry for wasting 5 of his best years in a never-ending rebuild, but that was the reds choice to bungle.

He has to go, ive watched a lot of baseball in 32 years - Joey Votto is a really bad baseball player now.

- - - Updated - - -

Votto was an old 34 year old and he is a very old 37 year old!

[RedlegJake]

Lesson from Votto - Don't Have Heroes. Yet, Joey is a hero to me and I can live with the lowered production - just move hm down to 6th or 7th in the order. When you have team lifers they inevitably wind up the last few years being shadows of their former selves (think Pujols, or Mays or Concepcion). It's the price you pay for long term contracts - more value than dollars early and more dollars than value late. I love Votto and there is no clear successor to him for now. Yes, he has declined and likely will get worse but damnit he's still a "diamond hero" to me. I'll tell you this though - in today's game there isn't room for heroes anymore - not long term. Churn baby churn is the name of the game. Joey is the last guy I want to spend his whole career with the team. Lock em up for their prime years, let em go a year or 2 before the decline starts, when they still have market value or when their prime years contract ends.