They are the problem.Originally Posted by Tom Servo
They are the problem.
Well you proved some bonafides with the Sonny to the IL call. How about expanding on this one then?
“I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”
Had it all typed up and ready to post, but decided not to press the key. Was having to many second thoughts when it came to concrete examples, so I stopped.
Me posting much without any meat behind what I post will just come off as more opinion, and there is plenty of that here all ready. But I will try to split off the part of the post that deals with why it happens and not put up the what happens and people can take pot shots if they like.
So when you have a player with a long term contract and clout who shows little to no respect for other team members, it sends a message -> you care about yourself only. That doesn't produce 25 guys tugging on the rope in the same direction.
And if new players that could have clout (which there are a few that come with "bonafides") step forward but their efforts are undercut, the message is -> this is my team and what I want is what matters. Happens in all sorts of ways big and small. The only way that changes is if management backs the emerging leadership because management has the biggest stick. If they do not, they cut the legs out from under the leadership trying to emerge.
So there are guys in that clubhouse that have won and know what it takes (the guys with "bonafides" as you would say), that didn't come to Cincy to lose, and want things to change. But there are some that are just happy with how things are and have been. And if they don't want it to change, then there is this tug of war, and the ones with the most team clout win unless management is committed to something different. And losing is what has gone on. And holding that in place because it is comfortable may not be malicious at every turn, but it happens none the less.
The examples of how it happens followed. But I couldn't pull the trigger on those. So take what you want and believe what you want, no sweat off my back either way.
Seems to me Reds might want to view Votto as what he now is - not what he was. He’s 37, late next season 38.
For two seasons, now, he’s been a .750 OPS type bat rather than much higher earlier in career. His defense isn’t as good anymore.
He needs to play less than full time. Needs to DH as often as possible. His presence can’t prevent the team from acquiring other hitters. Obviously his salary is relevant, but have to work around it as much as possible.
Still a pretty good player, should have a decent role, but Reds seem to see him as an everyday staple. It was predictable that he’d play a lesser role at this stage, can’t ignore Father Time in sports.
Last edited by Kc61; 09-14-2020 at 09:09 AM.
From other players perspective, he will play everyday and hit 1st or 3rd whether deserved or not. And there in lies one of the rubs. Are you committed to winning or giving Votto what he wants.
The Reds are great about concerning themselves with how players are treated and feel, but at times that goes too far. What individual players want and what makes sense for the team don't always line up, and there in is where conflict arises and management has to choose. It has surfaced into the press several times (Iglesias/closer, Castellanos/right field, Votto/everyday 1st base), happens under the surface more often, and sends a message to the rest. Is this a place committed to winning or committed to not stepping on the toes of "stars" desires.
jwdoc77 (09-14-2020)
Agreed. This is why all those posts people keep making saying "he's already earned his money" seemed so off base to me. He has provided a return, but it doesn't matter. His situation is still a problem that will impact this team over multiple seasons. Counting last season's fall-off, that's 5 seasons where Votto's presence as a fixture are serving as a drag to the team competing. He should DH against RHP and bat somewhere around 7th in the line-up when he does. It really needs to happen. His defense at 1B is horrendous and defense at 2B has been terrible this year as well. Move Moose to 1B (or 3B with Suarez at 1B) and make room for an all around player in the middle of the field. How that will work with Winker and Castellanos also on the roster will be a little difficult.
The Reds signed Votto to a mega deal and started tanking before it even began. He was under his old deal through 2013. They tanked during his entire prime with no effort to win and now are deciding to try while the back end of his deal is leaving them squarely behind the 8 ball. They should have moved him while he was a top 5 bat and it was obvious they weren't winning any time soon or they should have gone all in to compete in those seasons. They did the absolute worst possible thing with Votto's situation.
..and before everyone starts saying I'm bashing Votto, I'm not. IMO, he's the best hitter in Reds history, but the way the Reds handled all of this is absolutely nuts.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
This Reds team is starting to remind me of the 2017 Orioles.
Votto is Chris Davis. Castellanos is Mark Trumbo. Suarez is an under-performing Manny Machado (with less defense) and Winker is a flawed but decent Trey Mancini. JJ Hardy's .578 OPS at SS seems to fit as well. That team at least had Schoop providing value at 2B and a Wellington Castillo behind the plate creating some offense, won 75 games and fell off into sub-50 win oblivion from there. The Reds need to be very careful what they do next.
Last edited by mth123; 09-14-2020 at 10:42 AM.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
There are some similarities for sure. Votto is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. He needs to sit multiple times a week for the remainder of his career unless his performance improves. Reds are kind of stuck with Castellanos, Moustakas and Suarez, so they're left with one hole to fill in the infield and crossing fingers that guys like Senzel/Garcia/Ty Steve will be positive contributors. I'd love to see a high-BA type like Whit Merrifield or DJ LeMahieu brought in to play 2nd, with Moose covering 1B. I think one big addition on offense, plus less Votto and more of the young guys, will see a swing toward something more respectable. If Castellanos opts out it could provide opportunity to re-think the offense a bit. Kind of hoping that happens.
The pitching will have to be improved upon, which will be tough unless they find a way to bring Bauer back.
But Votto got benched and DH’d a bit and seemed to handle it well, I haven’t seen any indication he wouldn’t do what’s best for the team if he wasn’t performing.
Ron Madden (09-14-2020)
Also to read between the lines here, sounds like Bauer wanted Votto to get benched, probably after that game where he made an error and Trevor lost his cool out there, and the Reds said no?
Tom Servo (09-14-2020)
New Hitting Coach: "C'mon guys. Don't swing so hard and against the shift try to hit it the other way "
Professional Baseball Players: "Sure thing coach"
Huh? Huh-uh. Oh yeah, uh-huh.
I compare Votto sometimes with Todd Helton. Helton’s reputation is less because he played in Colorado. But both first basemen, high OBP hitters, great all around hitters in their prime.
Helton usually got 600-700 PA per season. Beginning at age 36 he got under 500 PAs. One of those years, with 491 PAs, he had excellent stats. You can contribute despite sitting some time.
It would behoove Votto to agree to something like this, particularly if NL adopts the DH, which is probably likely.
Last edited by Kc61; 09-14-2020 at 03:54 PM.
Votto benefited well from his 3 days off this season. Hopefully he and Bell noticed.
Hoping to change my username to 75769024
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