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Thread: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

  1. #991
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    I don’t know what rock you’ve been living under, but the vast majority have been doing what we’ve been asked to do. It’s so funny that the governor has no problem using the liquor commission to do his dirty work and restrict restaurant opening hours, but the state can’t even get school bus drivers to wear masks. If they really cared, they would send around health inspectors and go to places like Speedway and Kroger, and if they see violations, pull their occupancy permit for a couple of weeks. But no, it’s much easier for the governor to support the police force for arresting a woman with asthma who wasn’t wearing a mask outside at an empty football stadium.

    Most people are doing everything they can and have sacrificed a lot. I have done everything I can, and my circle of friends and relatives have done the same, which is why I don’t know anybody close that has tested positive. But I can’t do anything about some trailer trash hillbilly or entitled soccer mom that don’t think they have to wear a mask at Walmart. Only the state and Walmart can take care of that, because these people are not going to police themselves.
    I'm not so sure the majority of us are doing it, though.

    I'll simply point to the ever exploding rate of positive tests as some evidence that, well, we aren't.


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  3. #992
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    No, it would not be more restrictions. It would just be enforcing what we already have. The governor mandated masks in indoor retail places. If he doesn’t have the power to enforce it, why even bother in the first place.

    At the beginning of the mandate, both Kroger and Walmart stationed people at the front of the door to make sure everybody put on a mask. They stopped doing that, And now mask compliance is down. Who knew.
    I agree. I think it should be enforced. It's politics. The Governor puts the mandate out to make people who think there should be precautions happy, but he chooses not to enforce it to keep from losing the vote of the soccer mom who is too entitled to wear one or the fringe people who would get up in arms about trying to enforce it. Politics and money are behind everything and the public health doesn't really matter in these decisions IMO.

    I personally think that most of the people who don't comply are of the spoiled "I'm entitled" variety. At least that's what I see. That's why it irks me so much.
    Last edited by mth123; 10-27-2020 at 12:49 PM.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

  4. #993
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    The governor mandated masks in indoor retail places. If he doesn’t have the power to enforce it, why even bother in the first place.
    Why? So when people get sick he and the company can say it's not their fault and leave them without liability.

    All of this garbage has been about protecting money and not people since about the first week of April.

  5. #994
    Member BernieCarbo's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Why? So when people get sick he and the company can say it's not their fault and leave them without liability.

    All of this garbage has been about protecting money and not people since about the first week of April.
    No. This disease is not like a forklift running over a shopper where liability is clear. If somebody tests positive, there is no way to link it to the store. I’ve had this discussion with a few of my customers, and they are not concerned whatsoever about the liability. They just want to keep everybody safe and do constant improvement with the feedback that they’ve been given.

    He could easily enforce it if he wanted to, but it is far easier for him to rely on others to do the enforcement.

  6. #995
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    No. This disease is not like a forklift running over a shopper where liability is clear. If somebody tests positive, there is no way to link it to the store. I’ve had this discussion with a few of my customers, and they are not concerned whatsoever about the liability. They just want to keep everybody safe and do constant improvement with the feedback that they’ve been given.

    He could easily enforce it if he wanted to, but it is far easier for him to rely on others to do the enforcement.
    I'm glad that your few customers aren't concerned about liability.

    But it's clearly a concern given that lawmakers are trying to pass laws so businesses aren't liable for people contracting the virus in their place of business (whichever business that is).

  7. #996
    Member BernieCarbo's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I'm glad that your few customers aren't concerned about liability.

    But it's clearly a concern given that lawmakers are trying to pass laws so businesses aren't liable for people contracting the virus in their place of business (whichever business that is).
    And they shouldn’t be held liable, because it’s impossible to prove where anybody contracted it. Again, it isn’t like a workplace accident where someone is electrocuted or run over overcome by poisonous gas.

    If this became about liability, then businesses would concentrate on CYA instead. It would be to the detriment to everybody. That’s how one of my customers that I mentioned a couple months ago that had a few positive cases was able to change their layout and make the place even more safe. if it was about liability, they would have been resistant to changing the layout, because that could have given lawyers evidence that they knew they were at fault and they would have spent far more energy proving that the employees were negligent outside of the building.

    Of course, if there was evidence that an employee came to work and was feverish and told the supervisor that he tested positive, and the supervisor said I don’t care, get back to work, that would be obvious negligence. But nobody is doing stuff like that.
    Last edited by BernieCarbo; 10-27-2020 at 01:34 PM.

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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    That’s how one of my customers that I mentioned a couple months ago that had a few positive cases was able to change their layout and make the place even more safe. if it was about liability, they would have been resistant to changing the layout, because that could have given lawyers evidence that they knew they were at fault and they would have spent far more energy proving that the employees were negligent outside of the building.
    t.
    It's actually a federal rule of evidence that subsequent safety measures taken after an incident occurred cannot be used as evidence that an employer (in this case) was negligent/responsible in allowing an unsafe condition at the time an incident occurred. The public policy reasons for that rule of evidence are pretty obvious.

  9. #998
    Member BernieCarbo's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    It's actually a federal rule of evidence that subsequent safety measures taken after an incident occurred cannot be used as evidence that an employer (in this case) was negligent/responsible in allowing an unsafe condition at the time an incident occurred. The public policy reasons for that rule of evidence are pretty obvious.
    Yes, but in this case there are no federal rules. This pandemic isn’t even covered by OSHA outside of a few vague recommendations. There just hasn’t been enough research.

    But overall, I agree. If a worker gets run over by a fork truck in a factory, and the company then puts up an overhead mirror to provide better visibility for pedestrians and the fork truck drivers, that in itself is not proof of negligence. But with this disease, there is absolutely no proof where or how anybody contracted it, and the fact that we even need legislation to protect employers is very telling.

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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by BernieCarbo View Post
    But overall, I agree. If a worker gets run over by a fork truck in a factory, and the company then puts up an overhead mirror to provide better visibility for pedestrians and the fork truck drivers, that in itself is not proof of negligence.
    Not only is it not proof, you cannot testify to it in court as evidence of negligence.

    Here's the pertinent portion of the rule, by the way:

    When measures are taken that would have made an earlier injury or harm less likely to occur, evidence of the subsequent measures is not admissible to prove:

    negligence;
    culpable conduct;
    a defect in a product or its design; or
    a need for a warning or instruction.
    Last edited by Boston Red; 10-27-2020 at 01:50 PM.

  11. #1000
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    I'm looking at the global Covid tracker, and I saw France with 125,000 new cases on 10/25, which was unbelievable. Still really bad, but then I noticed 25 cases 10/23 and 62 cases 10/24, so their daily numbers clearly don't mean anything. Their 7 day average of 36,000 is pretty awful given their population of 67 million. Hopefully Europe's spike is short-lived.

  12. #1001
    I wear Elly colored glass WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Recovered COVID-19 Patients Suffering From 'Brain Fog' And Lower IQ

    A team of researchers from the Imperial College of London found that a growing number of patients who recovered from COVID-19 are suffering from "brain fog" and have seen their cognitive abilities diminish.

    Patients who suffered the most severe symptoms of COVID-19 saw the largest mental decline. They found that people who were in the ICU or spent time on a ventilator saw their IQ drop by more than eight points. The effect was seen in patients who had mild symptoms as well, with some people who tested positive, showing a four-point decline in their IQ, which is the equivalent of aging five years.

    "Individuals who recovered from suspected or confirmed Covid-19 perform worse on cognitive tests in multiple domains than would be *expected, given their detailed age and demographic profiles," the researchers wrote. "This deficit scales with symptom severity and is evident amongst those without hospital treatment."
    But, hey, herd immunity and all that, amirite?
    Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. -- Carl Sagan (Pale Blue Dot)

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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Speaking of Europe, it is interesting that just by case count (which surely reflects increased testing), the second wave is already worse than the first wave everywhere in Europe....except for Sweden. Sweden certainly hasn't escaped a second wave, but their second wave is about equal to their first so far. Ireland is the only other country I can see within Europe that may be able to make the same claim, but I see their second wave chart topping out a touch above the first wave (but headed in the correct direction unlike most of Europe now).

  14. #1003
    They call me "chef"
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    So much of the conversation around COVID, not just here, reads as mini-power matches between strangers online and it feels like the topic could be substituted for anything. This go-to mode of relating with others by being adversarial for the sport of it is bizarre and kind of annoying when it's laid as thick noise over the national discussion of a health crisis.

    There needs to be some kind of comb that sifts through the news and info and removes all the distortion and static caused by people who think COVID is a fun new toy to add to their 'argue with strangers for a quick hit of dopamine' box. At the very least, there needs to be some de-dupe button that blocks the same flimsy arguments from being repeated 1,000 times with zero change despite new information being made available. I can't imagine that people can follow this thread and others like it without getting worn down and depleted and I wonder if the non-news posts in this thread pose their own health risk to our weary populace. Let us out of this thread, Governor Hog!!!
    Last edited by Larry Schuler; 10-27-2020 at 03:05 PM.

  15. #1004
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    If you find a news source or find that “comb” that separates the wheat from the chaff, I’d love to see it.
    She used to wake me up with coffee ever morning

  16. #1005
    They call me "chef"
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    Re: COVID-19, Part VIII - heading into flu season

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Tucker View Post
    If you find a news source or find that “comb” that separates the wheat from the chaff, I’d love to see it.
    I feel like I'd need to move out of the country, at minimum, and there'd still be no guarantee that the media or flood of info would be organized "better". Afraid I'd categorize this as purely aspirational.


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