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Thread: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

  1. #241
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohayou View Post
    Just a random note, David Carr was sacked 76 times his rookie season.
    David Carr also played on an expansion team.

    I’d be curious how many times Luck was sacked. If anything I’d compare Burrow to Luck at this point.
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    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohayou View Post
    Just a random note, David Carr was sacked 76 times his rookie season.
    Shows how much of a statue Carr is/was...but man I would set the over/under for Burrow at 60.
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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Trade Burrow now for a first round pick next year? His stock is probably as high as it's going to be behind this line. Trade him, tank for Trevor, and then draft / sign a new o-line.

    Yes I am joking... but man the Bengals are not treating this kid well.

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by schmidty622 View Post
    Trade Burrow now for a first round pick next year? His stock is probably as high as it's going to be behind this line. Trade him, tank for Trevor, and then draft / sign a new o-line.

    Yes I am joking... but man the Bengals are not treating this kid well.
    Anyone outside of the Bengals organization knew it was going to be a disaster. Hopefully, he stays healthy.

    Burrow is probably worth 5 first round picks. And, I’m not even sure that would be enough.
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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    From Profootball Focus:

    "The Bengals did not help themselves, either, as they were called for two pass interference penalties on the Eagles' final drive of the game, thrusting Wentz and the Philadelphia offense into prime striking distance. The offensive line allowed 12 pressures on 52 reps in pass protection but surrendered three sacks and four quarterback hits.

    Burrow was charged with five more sacks, as he often held onto the ball too long and either checked it down or threw it away. After looking like a deer in headlights in the first quarter, Burrow was able to bring his swagger back the rest of the game. He had zero turnover worthy plays and completed 70% of his passes for 312 yards and two end-zone dimes to fellow rookie Tee Higgins."
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Playadlc View Post
    I think Jonah will be okay. It is the right side. Price shouldn’t be on an NFL roster and Hart is Hart.
    Put Jonah on the right side and draft Sewell.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScotlandRed View Post
    Purely eye test here but has Jonah Williams been pretty good? Seems like majority of the pressure is coming from the right side or through the middle.
    Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    Goodberry released PFF ranks via twitter overall numbers are bad but pass blocking is awful...

    Bengals OL ranks according to PFF

    Jonah Williams 41/71 OTs
    Michael Jordan 52/73 OGs
    Trey Hopkins 23/35 OCs
    Fred Johnson 57/73 OGs
    Bobby Hart 43/71 OTs


    PFF's pass block efficiency rankings...

    Jonah Williams 42/71
    Michael Jordan 45/72
    Trey Hopkins 22/35
    Fred Johnson 69/72
    Bobby Hart 63/71
    Been looking for those free somewhere. Thanks for posting them.

    I looked at the first column first, and saw Bobby Hart at 43 of 71, and thought, "no way", but was willing to defer to PFF as they look at every play, but then I saw the next group, which was the Pass-blocking and that's the Bobby Hart we all know and loathe (actually better than I thought, as Hart gets a borderline "D"/"D-". On my Bell Curve that (I went to a Catholic grade school. No participation trophies. No dumbing down of the curriculum to push kids through the system and not hurt their feelings. Homework every day mandatory without any time to "finish it" at school.)

    My Bell Curve for "72", the number listed among the "qualified tackles, right and left" from PFF (Tackles have "71", so every number below "C" moves up by one, so a "C-" would be 47-50, and so on, making Hart a "D-", not a "D"):

    1 -- A+
    2-6 -- A
    7 -- A-
    8-9 -- B+
    10-19 -- B
    20-21 -- B-
    22-25 -- C+
    26-47 (26-46 for T's) -- C
    48-51 (T47-50) -- C-
    52-53 (T51-52) -- D+
    54-63 (T53-62) -- D
    64-65 (T63-64) -- D-
    66 (T65) -- F+
    67-71 (T66-70) -- F
    72 (T71) -- F-

    PBR = Pass Blocking Ranking
    RBR = Run Blocking Ranking
    OR = Overall Ranking

    Bengals OL ranks according to PFF

    Overall Ranking (Overall "Grades" are always halfway between their Run-blocking grades and Pass-blocking grades without consideration for number of plays of each type run, so it's easy to calculate their run-blocking rankings here, so I'll add the third column.)

    Jonah Williams 41/71 OG = "C"
    Michael Jordan 52/73 OG = "C-" (would be a "D+" on a 72-scale)
    Trey Hopkins 23/35 OG = "C"
    Fred Johnson 57/73 OG = "D"
    Bobby Hart 43/71 OG = "C"

    Williams, Jordan and Hart are all on the low end of the "C" scale on the OR, much closer to a "C-" than a "C+"


    PFF's Pass Block Efficiency rankings...

    Jonah Williams 42/71 PBR = "C"
    Michael Jordan 45/72 PBR = "C"
    Trey Hopkins 22/35 PBR = "C"
    Fred Johnson 69/72 PBR = "F"
    Bobby Hart 63/71 PBR = "D-"

    Hopkins, Jordan and Williams are all on the low end of the "C" scale on the PBR, much closer to a "C-" than a "C+"


    PFF's Run Block Efficiency rankings:

    Jonah Williams 40/71 RBR = "C"
    Michael Jordan 59/72 RBR = "D"
    Trey Hopkins 24/35 RBR = "C-"
    Fred Johnson 45/73 RBR = "C"
    Bobby Hart 23/71 RBR = "C+"

    And, now we know why Bobby Hart is starting,...he's our best run-blocker so far (among the "Starters", at least), and is performing better than league average. But, when you have a franchise Quarterback throwing the ball 61 times, it's not worth it to have a run-blocker whose "best" is a "C+", and whose pass-blocking is a "D-", especially when the guy next to him is an "F". Fred Johnson is at the low end of the "C" scale, while Jonah Williams is much closer to a "C-" than a "C+". It also explains my post a couple days ago which showed us giving up less than one yard per rush attempt on the right end, which would almost always involve a TE blocking. Would love to know the run-blocking and pass-blocking rankings of our TE's.


    PFF's "Rankings" takes about four games into the season before there's enough of a mix of opponents to balance out the rankings. This is just two games, so a much truer assessment will be available after two more games.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Really though, if we cannot protect Burrow he shouldn't play. It's borderline criminal to keep running the franchise out like this every week. I mean we all know Steelers week is coming sooner or later, and of course they're gonna add a little or a lot to every hit they get, penalty or not.

    If we're just that bad that we can't protect our best player, then let's have him wait till we can. This season does not matter. The next 10 do.

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    18 QB hits on Burrow yesterday.

    18.

    In one game.

    Shameful.
    He said he was curious about the crowd but didn’t want to stay and talk. “I’m heading out,” he said. “This is a super-spreader event.”

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    The other thing that baffles me, is more of a human nature thing.

    So if you are a guy like Bobby Hart, Fred Johnson, Billy Price. And you have spent most of your life being among the best at your job, how do you hold your head up and go to a job where not only are you among the WORST at what you do, but your poor job performance actually causes direct pain to the one person you're supposed to protect?

    I mean, I know the checks cash, sure. But imagine being one of them, getting up this morning, and looking forward to watching game film of their horrid performance, to be scrutinized in front of your bosses and peers. And imagine getting used to this.

    I couldn't do it. It would be one thing if their poor performance only hurt themselves. But this is akin to being a really bad nurse that leaves terrible bruises on their patients when giving shots, a fork lift driver that keeps knocking boxes on top of other employees, etc.

    It's perpetual incompantance. I don't know how they even get out of bed in the morning and live that life.
    He said he was curious about the crowd but didn’t want to stay and talk. “I’m heading out,” he said. “This is a super-spreader event.”

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    From Profootball Focus:

    "The Bengals did not help themselves, either, as they were called for two pass interference penalties on the Eagles' final drive of the game, thrusting Wentz and the Philadelphia offense into prime striking distance. The offensive line allowed 12 pressures on 52 reps in pass protection but surrendered three sacks and four quarterback hits.

    Burrow was charged with five more sacks, as he often held onto the ball too long and either checked it down or threw it away. After looking like a deer in headlights in the first quarter, Burrow was able to bring his swagger back the rest of the game. He had zero turnover worthy plays and completed 70% of his passes for 312 yards and two end-zone dimes to fellow rookie Tee Higgins."
    Interesting that they fault Burrow on five of the eight sacks.

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    The other thing that baffles me, is more of a human nature thing.

    So if you are a guy like Bobby Hart, Fred Johnson, Billy Price. And you have spent most of your life being among the best at your job, how do you hold your head up and go to a job where not only are you among the WORST at what you do, but your poor job performance actually causes direct pain to the one person you're supposed to protect?

    I mean, I know the checks cash, sure. But imagine being one of them, getting up this morning, and looking forward to watching game film of their horrid performance, to be scrutinized in front of your bosses and peers. And imagine getting used to this.

    I couldn't do it. It would be one thing if their poor performance only hurt themselves. But this is akin to being a really bad nurse that leaves terrible bruises on their patients when giving shots, a fork lift driver that keeps knocking boxes on top of other employees, etc.

    It's perpetual incompantance. I don't know how they even get out of bed in the morning and live that life.
    Price is in the doghouse so I can see guys like he and Ross hanging there heads as they know the chances of turning it around are slim...but Hart baffles me in regards to why the org continues to value him as a starting NFL player. My only thought is Turner is higher on him than we are which is even more damning.
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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    I heard repeatedly before the season that 2020 was all about making sure Burrow was really "THE GUY".

    Well, three games in and there is no question. He's good beyond all reasonable expectations. With even a smidgen of protection yesterday he carved up the field with 13 straight completions over two drives with balls into impossible windows at times. He's so goddamn good. My god he's good.

    So that's the good news.

    The bad news is...almost everything else. From the off-season commitment to running it back at o-line, to the weird scattershot play-calling and game-planning of ZT, to the hands around their own throat approach to playing defense in any spot that matters.

    Those parts are all alarming to me because that is front office/coaching **** ups and i know this team is SLOW to correct problems there. Dave Shula got, like, infinity to fail. I have no confidence in ZT at this point because of his trust in coaches like Turner (who has failed everywhere) and the decisions that has resulted in at line.

    But, Burrow. Holy god. To go 31 of 44 yesterday for 321 yards and throw 2 TDs to go with 0 INTs when he is being sacked 8 times and hit another 9 times - and when most of that happened AFTER the near career-ender shot he took that drew the flag, I mean, just...if that is Dalton each of the three games so far are blowout losses. Dalton couldn't remotely handle that kind of pressure. Which, frankly, isn't a shot at Dalton, most QBs can't. Only the really great ones can make a go of it under such circumstances. It's clear now, that's the trajectory for Burrow. If he doesn't die first.
    Well, that's what those words mean. He was here. If they don't keep him, he will have been lost/subtracted. I headed out the door today with two shoes on my feet. If I don't return with them, I have lost them. If I do return with them, I haven't added them. ---M2

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    “I think I can do a better job of making one or two guys miss in the pocket,” Burrow said.
    That quote should be read over and over and over again to the offensive line. Each and every day.

    That's shameful, that Burrow has to say that. Beyond unreasonable. I mean, good on Burrow for trying to protect his line (better than they protect him) - but needing to make "1 or 2 guys miss in the pocket" on the regular is NOT reasonable to put on any human's shoulders.
    Well, that's what those words mean. He was here. If they don't keep him, he will have been lost/subtracted. I headed out the door today with two shoes on my feet. If I don't return with them, I have lost them. If I do return with them, I haven't added them. ---M2

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    Re: 2020 Bengals Thread Part 2: New Era or More of the Same?

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    That quote should be read over and over and over again to the offensive line. Each and every day.

    That's shameful, that Burrow has to say that. Beyond unreasonable. I mean, good on Burrow for trying to protect his line (better than they protect him) - but needing to make "1 or 2 guys miss in the pocket" on the regular is NOT reasonable to put on any human's shoulders.
    That Burrow quote sounds like something leaders say to hopefully inspire improvement, as opposed to publicly reprimanding.

    He really does seem to have wisdom beyond his years.

    Not for long though, if he keeps taking shots like that. There was a point, early on, where David Klingler looked every bit the part of a rookie QB on his way to being an established QB. (Mike Brown didn't give Klingler any offensive line help either) Klingler had a great deep ball and accuracy to match. Pretty good decision maker too, he ran a shotgun-style "pro" offense out of Tennessee.

    Then, early in his first full year as a starter, I remember he got absolutely BLASTED from behind, courtesy of the LT Rod "El Matador" Jones. It was one of many times he was lit up that season, but it stood out as a big one to me. He never seemed quite the same after that hit, and it marked the beginning of his steep downward trend in his productivity curve.

    Now here we are, 30 years later, and it's hard not to see the exact same patterns emerging with Burrow and this shameful offensive line. One thing Burrow has in his favor, comparatively, is Jonah Williams blocking his blind side instead of Rod Jones. As a right-handed QB, better to have an abysmal right side of the line rather than the left. So there is that.

    But no joke, if they don't have any options to fix the offensive line, and it sounds like they don't, they have to shut Burrow down until they do.
    He said he was curious about the crowd but didn’t want to stay and talk. “I’m heading out,” he said. “This is a super-spreader event.”


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