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Thread: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

  1. #211
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    You can’t separate the manager and coaching staff from the hitting approach they have been advancing.

    Bell, an analytics advocate, probably had much to do with that approach. Even if the approach itself has benefits, they took it too far.

    Reds can get new players, but the coaching staff can’t continue to insist on an approach resulting in .212 batting average.
    I guess I'm saying with different players it might have worked. The approach and these players don't fit. Castellanos and Moose have a history of production but it wasn't achieved using the approach they took this year. As for why they used that approach, my guess it's an organizational philosophy and Bell's role was to implement it not decide upon it. If the organization wants that approach then the organization needs to provide the players who can pull it off.

    It reminds me exactly of Drew Stubbs. He was a talented player with some tools, but he was determined to take a bunch of pitches come heck or high water. He fell behind in the count all the time and was easy pickins for the pitcher after that. His approach didn't match what he was physically capable of doing. This season saw a team filled with Drew Stubbs except without the speed and the decent defense.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  4. #212
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Granted I don't have a better explanation for why Castellanos was so below his normal production, but I also find it a little hard to believe the Reds gave him and Moose a bunch of money and then demanded that they make X, Y, and Z changes to their approach. I think their underperformed offensively on their own merit.
    “I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”

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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think the pickle was intentional with the idea that Aquino could score while Farmer was in a run down. That works for 13 and 14 year olds. Major leaguers make the play to get the out at home. It happened the way it did because Aquino hesitated. IF he runs right away, they throw home immediately and he gets tagged by the catcher instead. IMO it was a stupid play called by the moron in the dugout.

    The only chance it had of working is if some one on Atlanta makes a bad throw or drops the ball.
    Article by C Trent says it was a called straight steal for Farmer...not a delayed steal as you are describing. Farmer got a bad jump, knew he was toast and got in a run down. Aquino did was he was supposed to do. Blame goes to Bell and Farmer.

  7. #214
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Granted I don't have a better explanation for why Castellanos was so below his normal production, but I also find it a little hard to believe the Reds gave him and Moose a bunch of money and then demanded that they make X, Y, and Z changes to their approach. I think their underperformed offensively on their own merit.
    Did Jesse Winker suddenly become a power hitter on his own? His K rate went from 15.6% to 25% in one season. Since Bell took over his K rate went from 13.8% to 25%. Was that just a personal decision?

    The team urged power hitting and walks based on analytics. Of course each player handles that advice his own way.

    It relates to personnel, sure, but the organizational emphasis seems clear. And players try to comply to one extent or the other.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-01-2020 at 05:26 PM.

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  9. #215
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I guess I'm saying with different players it might have worked. The approach and these players don't fit. Castellanos and Moose have a history of production but it wasn't achieved using the approach they took this year. As for why they used that approach, my guess it's an organizational philosophy and Bell's role was to implement it not decide upon it. If the organization wants that approach then the organization needs to provide the players who can pull it off.

    It reminds me exactly of Drew Stubbs. He was a talented player with some tools, but he was determined to take a bunch of pitches come heck or high water. He fell behind in the count all the time and was easy pickins for the pitcher after that. His approach didn't match what he was physically capable of doing. This season saw a team filled with Drew Stubbs except without the speed and the decent defense.
    Bell was hired as an analytics-based manager. He runs the team on the field. I don’t believe Bell is a mere implementer of a batting approach imposed on him by the front office. Would expect that David had a substantial role in determining the team’s approach.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-01-2020 at 05:39 PM.

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  11. #216
    rest in power, king Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Granted I don't have a better explanation for why Castellanos was so below his normal production, but I also find it a little hard to believe the Reds gave him and Moose a bunch of money and then demanded that they make X, Y, and Z changes to their approach. I think their underperformed offensively on their own merit.
    I thought the same thing, but I don’t think it’s maybe entirely impossible that they pitched their organizational hitting philosophy to them as part of the whole free agent package and they were on board with it.

  12. #217
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Again — stay, go. It doesn’t matter.

    This franchise and this organization has loser DNA

    0 runs scored in the postseason, 0 meaningful victories since 1995 — but at least Votto felt cool dropping some neat post-game content after they clinched.
    Cincinnati Reds: Farm System Champions 2022

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  14. #218
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I thought the same thing, but I don’t think it’s maybe entirely impossible that they pitched their organizational hitting philosophy to them as part of the whole free agent package and they were on board with it.
    Castellanos’ strikeout rate had been about 21-22% the last few years. It was over 28% this year.

    It fits the same pattern as a number of the guys. Suarez, good power, higher walks, 33% strikeouts, BA at the Mendoza line.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-01-2020 at 06:05 PM.

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  16. #219
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Granted I don't have a better explanation for why Castellanos was so below his normal production, but I also find it a little hard to believe the Reds gave him and Moose a bunch of money and then demanded that they make X, Y, and Z changes to their approach. I think their underperformed offensively on their own merit.
    Could very well be. I don't buy that the hitting coach tells established, successful big league hitters what to do. I'm just saying if this is some organizational thing based on analytics, that it's coming from above and the team needs to get players who fit the approach. Bell is just implementing and the failure isn't on him. The spastic substitutions are on him and a lot of other stuff, and I think he's the biggest dolt who has ever managed the Reds in my time watching, which goes back to the Dave Bristol era, but he's not the reason hitters underperformed.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

  17. #220
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Bell was hired as an analytics-based manager. He runs the team on the field. I don’t believe Bell is a mere implementer of a batting approach imposed on him by the front office. Would expect that David had a substantial role in determining the team’s approach.
    The main analytics guys work for the front office. Bell can speak the language and understand what they are telling him and isn't an old school guy who would just blow it off like others might, but I'd be shocked if he's running the numbers and coming up with this stuff himself. He's getting the info and the interpretation of it and implementing. They aren't going to hire all these high powered statisticians and MBAs and then let a baseball guy do it himself.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

  18. #221
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    The main analytics guys work for the front office. Bell can speak the language and understand what they are telling him and isn't an old school guy who would just blow it off like others might, but I'd be shocked if he's running the numbers and coming up with this stuff himself. He's getting the info and the interpretation of it and implementing. They aren't going to hire all these high powered statisticians and MBAs and then let a baseball guy do it himself.
    Statistical analysts are not necessarily decision makers for a sports team (or other business). They perform analyses and provide the results, perhaps with specific ideas and suggestions.

    The decision makers close to the ballclub make the judgment whether and how to apply the information.

    As to matters of player performance, that would absolutely include manager David Bell. And for pitching performance that would also, absolutely, include pitching coach Derrick Johnson.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-01-2020 at 09:41 PM.

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  20. #222
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Statistical analysts are not necessarily decision makers for a sports team. They perform analyses and provide the results, perhaps with specific ideas and suggestions.

    The decision makers close to the ballclub decide whether and how to apply the information.

    As to matters of player performance, that would absolutely include manager David Bell. And for pitching performance it would also, absolutely, include pitching coach Derrick Johnson.
    DJ has done so well with the pitchers...how do they find the “DJ of hitting”? I thought it was interesting that Donnie Ecker was supposedly who suggested the changes to Aquinos swing last year and then left for the Giants job. Does anyone have any insight on how the Giants offense faired this year?

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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwdoc77 View Post
    DJ has done so well with the pitchers...how do they find the “DJ of hitting”? I thought it was interesting that Donnie Ecker was supposedly who suggested the changes to Aquinos swing last year and then left for the Giants job. Does anyone have any insight on how the Giants offense faired this year?
    Giants bats did quite well, 6th best OPS in the NL.

    But hard to compare, the NL West faced entirely different opponents and pitching than Central this year.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-01-2020 at 09:37 PM.

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  23. #224
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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    No...I don't bring Bell back. He's too busy meddling with dudes on the lineup card instead of letting the studs of hte team too much.

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    Re: David Bell Needs to...Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Giants bats did quite well, 6th best OPS in the NL.

    But hard to compare, the NL West faced entirely different opponents and pitching than Central this year.
    I’d be more interested in improvements made from last years Giants offense...but again, 60 game sample is probably too small. I felt like that was an unnoticed move that could really hurt the organization in the off-season when he left. Maybe it did, maybe it didn’t, but he seemed like a bright guy who was going to be given the same role on the hitting side that they gave Caleb Cothem on the pitching side. I dont know if they ever ended up filling that role or not. One thing is clear, Zinter does not seem to be the answer.


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