Reds add Gray, DFA Nate Jones

[Kc61]

Apologies if this is dry sarcasm but he retired 18 months ago lol.

I read that, but he can always make a comeback!

[Bourgeois Zee]

Those free agents many posters wanted the Reds to sign would have taken the place not of Jones and Strop, but of Antone and Sims (and Reed).

They certainly wouldn't have taken the place of Lorenzen (who would have been given a lot of rope as a six-year vet), Iglesias (a long-time vet), and Stephenson (who was dominant last season and a four-year vet. These are the relief arms who were largely the reason the Reds struggled to win early. (Especially Lorenzen.)

[Kc61]

Those free agents many posters wanted the Reds to sign would have taken the place not of Jones and Strop, but of Antone and Sims (and Reed).

They certainly wouldn't have taken the place of Lorenzen (who would have been given a lot of rope as a six-year vet), Iglesias (a long-time vet), and Stephenson (who was dominant last season and a four-year vet. These are the relief arms who were largely the reason the Reds struggled to win early. (Especially Lorenzen.)

If Reds had added established relievers, I doubt Sims gets dropped. He's out of options and was widely viewed as part of this pen. As for Antone, he pitched some at Prasco and would have - and did - earn his way in.

(Stephenson wasn't much of a cause of Reds' early struggles - he was on the IL for a month after his first outing.)

Mainly, though, the pen is a unit. And if someone failed there should be others to pick him up. Reds could have added some better guys, the bounce back pitchers wound up traded, released or sent down.

[Bourgeois Zee]

If Reds had added established relievers, I doubt Sims gets dropped. He's out of options and was widely viewed as part of this pen. As for Antone, he pitched some at Prasco and would have - and did - earn his way in.

Within two weeks, the Reds' pen was:

Iglesias
Lorenzen
Strop
Garrett
Stephenson
Mahle
Jones
Reed
Sims

Strop fit your bill as an established relief arm, so he'd obviously stay.

Perhaps the first relief arm that goes packing/ is never picked up is Jones. Let's replace him with one of those established relievers.

The second would be between Reed, who'd done very well in limited innings as a relief arm and was a four-year veteran despite many injuries and Sims, who had also shown flashes of dominant stuff but whose numbers were largely AAA-driven. As a lefty, Reed would have the edge, especially since Raley and biddle (as projects) wouldn't have been signed at all.

As to Antone, again, there wouldn't be room for him even if he did dominate in Prasco. No one aside had options. Jones was gone. In this reality, Raley was never signed (and not on the team to be jettisoned). Strop had pitched pretty well early, so he wasn't going anywhere.

So you run the risk of losing your two best relievers in signing more established relief arms that might or might not be better than what they already had.

[Kc61]

Within two weeks, the Reds' pen was:

Iglesias
Lorenzen
Strop
Garrett
Stephenson
Mahle
Jones
Reed
Sims

Strop fit your bill as an established relief arm, so he'd obviously stay.

Perhaps the first relief arm that goes packing/ is never picked up is Jones. Let's replace him with one of those established relievers.

The second would be between Reed, who'd done very well in limited innings as a relief arm and was a four-year veteran despite many injuries and Sims, who had also shown flashes of dominant stuff but whose numbers were largely AAA-driven. As a lefty, Reed would have the edge, especially since Raley and biddle (as projects) wouldn't have been signed at all.

As to Antone, again, there wouldn't be room for him even if he did dominate in Prasco. No one aside had options. Jones was gone. In this reality, Raley was never signed (and not on the team to be jettisoned). Strop had pitched pretty well early, so he wasn't going anywhere.

So you run the risk of losing your two best relievers in signing more established relief arms that might or might not be better than what they already had.

If Reds had signed two better FAs maybe Strop never even gets signed. Or maybe Reds keep an extra reliever on a thirty man roster with more bullpen talent.

Sims, Reed and Antone were already here, in the organization, so at some point they likely get a chance in the pen. I doubt Reds DFA any of them at the outset.

All hypothetical. Bottom line, I hope next time around Reds invest a bit more in the pen, with less trial and error.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Sims, Reed and Antone were already here, in the organization, so at some point they likely get a chance in the pen. I doubt Reds DFA any of them at the outset.

They would have had to DFA at least one of Sims or Reed. They were both out of options.

[Griffey012]

Fair, but Box, McGee, and Rosenthal seem a cut above the Reds’ bounce back group. At least as I remember those guys.

FWIW, I believe Reds were looking for efficiencies based on the expertise and track record of their pitching coaches.

And I don’t really blame Reds for not spending even more last off-season. But they paid a price on the field with the July-August bullpen IMO.

Those guys are the same type of reclamation/bounceback candidates the reds signed. They just worked out. Per usual, the higher priced free agent relievers have largely not performed to their pay. Pomeranz has been outstanding but the rest wouldn’t have put us in a materially different spot and we have more money next offseason to throw at Bauer or whoever else.

I’m just glad the Reds have a good bullpen when it counts. And are getting some good innings from cheaper, in house options.

[Kc61]

Those guys are the same type of reclamation/bounceback candidates the reds signed. They just worked out. Per usual, the higher priced free agent relievers have largely not performed to their pay. Pomeranz has been outstanding but the rest wouldn’t have put us in a materially different spot and we have more money next offseason to throw at Bauer or whoever else.

I’m just glad the Reds have a good bullpen when it counts. And are getting some good innings from cheaper, in house options.

If the Reds had made better choices - even on the reclamation types - some would have worked out for them too.

Everything isn’t luck and magic.

[Tom Servo]

If the Reds had made better choices - even on the reclamation types - some would have worked out for them too.

Everything isn’t luck and magic.

Nate Jones was pretty darn good for quite a while, and more recently than the Greg Hollands and Trevor Rosenthals. Just didn't work out.

[757690]

Those guys are the same type of reclamation/bounceback candidates the reds signed. They just worked out. Per usual, the higher priced free agent relievers have largely not performed to their pay. Pomeranz has been outstanding but the rest wouldn’t have put us in a materially different spot and we have more money next offseason to throw at Bauer or whoever else.

I’m just glad the Reds have a good bullpen when it counts. And are getting some good innings from cheaper, in house options.

Box, McGee and Rosenthal all were once solid closers. That puts them in a different category than the guys the Reds signed.

[Tom Servo]

Box, McGee and Rosenthal all were once solid closers. That puts them in a different category than the guys the Reds signed.

Boxberger was about 5 years removed from any real success and only got a job because the Marlins are cheap and desperate, please don't try and argue he was a better gamble than Nate Jones or anybody.

[Rolando]

Box, McGee and Rosenthal all were once solid closers. That puts them in a different category than the guys the Reds signed.

Nate Jones and Tyler Thornburg will both closers too.

[757690]

Boxberger was about 5 years removed from any real success and only got a job because the Marlins are cheap and desperate, please don't try and argue he was a better gamble than Nate Jones or anybody.

All relievers are risks and gambles. But Jones was a bigger gamble than most because of all his injuries.

Btw, Box had 32 saves in 2018. That is success, even if his ERA was high.

[757690]

Nate Jones and Tyler Thornburg will both closers too.

Thornburg yes. Jones, no.

[Kc61]

Nate Jones was pretty darn good for quite a while, and more recently than the Greg Hollands and Trevor Rosenthals. Just didn't work out.

Last time Jones worked more than 30 MLB innings was 2016. His most recent good, full season was 2016. Before that he pitched full seasons in 2012-2013.

Maybe the other guys mentioned are similar, I don’t know.

But 2012-13, 2016 was a bridge too far for me.