2020-2021 Off-Season News, Notes and Discussion

[NeilHamburger]

I just don't see how the Reds get someone back as valuable as Gray. If you move Gray I think the team finishes below .500. Why would a team trade a young number 1 or 2 starter for Gray plus a franchise type of SS for Gray? That would be the only way a trade like that would make sense for the Reds, as without Gray your rotation is in shambles and it doesn't sound like the Reds have tons of money to spend to replenish it.

To me, if you move Gray that signals a rebuild. Just moving him and nothing else reminds of Cincy after 2013 until about 2015 where they were half in and half out, and ended up waiting too long to finally sell everything.

[NeilHamburger]

Also, I hate in general the trades where you have multiple lesser pieces for one great piece unless it's part of a total rebuild where you are just stripping down the entire team. I think at the highest level great wins out on those trades 9 times out of 10.

[757690]

Also, I hate in general the trades where you have multiple lesser pieces for one great piece unless it's part of a total rebuild where you are just stripping down the entire team. I think at the highest level great wins out on those trades 9 times out of 10.

If the Reds plan to make that kind of trade, it will suck. But it’s possible to trade Gray for elite young players that make the team better.

[JFLegal]

trading sonny gray makes absolutely no sense for the reds. he's very good and he's signed to a relatively team-friendly contract.

[Patrick Bateman]

The Reds, without a Bauer return, are not looking like particularly strong contenders for the WS next season. I dont take issue with trading Gray at his highest value to invest in 2022, 2023, 2024+++ seasons. Gray is 31, and a candidate for regression over the next few years, and could see that value decline.

Anyways , I'm a Gray fan, but the idea of trading him for a terrific package smells like Tbay Rays strategy. No guarantee it works out like Archer (almost for sure it wont because that one was robbery) but there is a template here I can wrap my head around.

[JFLegal]

where are some of you getting the idea the reds are in any type of shape where they can rebuild? they have big money invested the next 3 years in votto, moustakas and castellanos. $82 million for votto, and $48M apiece for Moose and Castellanos. That is a total of $178M that is committed to just those 3 players over the next three seasons. therefore, you can throw any references to the tampa bay rays out the window since they never operate in that fashion (throwing big money at veterans who undoubtedly will decline in their 30s).

trading sonny gray won't lead to any type of rebuilding. they've already invested too much money over the next 3 years. they need to find the best possible option to replace bauer (obviously it won't be someone as good as bauer) and then hope guys like mahle and antone, or perhaps even a guy like lodolo or someone else, takes their game to the next level. miley should have a bounce-back year as the No. 5 starter imo. castillo and gray is still a very good 1-2 combination at the top of the rotation. we were just spoiled by the top 3 during the shortened season. but castillo/gray is still a good tandem leading the rotation.

this team needs to add a good starting pitcher (not easy) and a good shortstop (even harder). but they're not that far away. especially in the nl central which is not the world beater it was a handful of years ago.

[Wonderful Monds]

where are some of you getting the idea the reds are in any type of shape where they can rebuild? they have big money invested the next 3 years in votto, moustakas and castellanos. $82 million for votto, and $48M apiece for Moose and Castellanos. That is a total of $178M that is committed to just those 3 players over the next three seasons. therefore, you can throw any references to the tampa bay rays out the window since they never operate in that fashion (throwing big money at veterans who undoubtedly will decline in their 30s).

trading sonny gray won't lead to any type of rebuilding. they've already invested too much money over the next 3 years. they need to find the best possible option to replace bauer (obviously it won't be someone as good as bauer) and then hope guys like mahle and antone, or perhaps even a guy like lodolo or someone else, takes their game to the next level. miley should have a bounce-back year as the No. 5 starter imo. castillo and gray is still a very good 1-2 combination at the top of the rotation. we were just spoiled by the top 3 during the shortened season. but castillo/gray is still a good tandem leading the rotation.

this team needs to add a good starting pitcher (not easy) and a good shortstop (even harder). but they're not that far away. especially in the nl central which is not the world beater it was a handful of years ago.

Yeah it doesn’t really make any sense to rebuild or whatever when you consider the contracts they just handed out less than a year ago. Are they really going to punt that fast after committing all that money?

[marcshoe]

Rebuilding is itself a lack of imagination. Rebuilding one season after spending more money than you've ever spent is a betrayal of the fans and the franchise.

[Coopdaddy67]

Not significantly boosting payroll and building around Votto after handing him a long-term contract didn't make sense either, nor did refusing to allow trades to go through because Castellini "liked" guys.

Over the past 20 years the Reds have done more things that didn't make sense than did, so I won't put anything past them.

[The Operator]

Rebuilding is itself a lack of imagination. Rebuilding one season after spending more money than you've ever spent is a betrayal of the fans and the franchise.

Yes, it would reek of when The Marlins signed Mark Buehrle and several other FA’s in the inaugural season of their new ballpark and then immediately traded them the following offseason.


Never good when your ownership group draws comparisons to Jeff Loria. Not saying that what will happen here, but if so, I’ll go from “I don’t like Castsellini” to “Castellini has got to go” in pretty short order.

[blumj]

They figured out that even though it's asmall market there are enough of you willing to payto goto andwatch games ontv whenthey convince you they,re trying by paying for star players. unfortunately the 2020 seasonwasn't regularyou couldnt buyticketsto increase their revenue enough to make up for how much they increased their payroll

[NeilHamburger]

Man, that Krall interview on WLW wasn't exactly inspiring. Sounds like Gray is being moved. Also, sounds like Bauer has no shot of being brought back. Welcome to the Linder years boys.

https://twitter.com/m_sheldon/status...40151672950784

[Kc61]

Man, that Krall interview on WLW wasn't exactly inspiring. Sounds like Gray is being moved. Also, sounds like Bauer has no shot of being brought back. Welcome to the Linder years boys.

https://twitter.com/m_sheldon/status...40151672950784

I didn’t like the interview. I didn’t find it quite as gloomy as you did, Neil, but Krall seemed reluctant to reveal the Reds’ direction for the off-season. Can see how one might view it as a red flag for 2021.

Dick Williams was good in these off-season interviews. He didn’t give away specifics, but you got a sense of the off-season direction. I didn’t always like that direction, but appreciated Dick’s comments which usually proved accurate.

[757690]

I didn’t like the interview. I didn’t find it quite as gloomy as you did, Neil, but Krall seemed reluctant to reveal the Reds’ direction for the off-season. Can see how one might view it as a red flag for 2021.

Dick Williams was good in these off-season interviews. He didn’t give away specifics, but you got a sense of the off-season direction. I didn’t always like that direction, but appreciated Dick’s comments which usually proved accurate.

Krall seems to throw cold water on the Gray trade talks in this interview

The Reds have listened to offers for Sonny Gray, as The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal first reported, but Krall seemed to pump the brakes on those trade rumors Wednesday.

“We’ve had multiple conversations with every team, agents for free agents, all that stuff, and you’re just trying to figure out what is out there, how can you make your team the best,” Krall said. “We’ve had hits on just about every player on our roster. Some guys have had 15 hits from different clubs and people ask about it. You’re going to ask about it because you want to know, at least, who is available, who is not available and what the landscape of that market looks like.

“Whether you’re doing something or not is a whole different ballgame. I think that’s where we have to take a step back and look at this and say, OK, let’s see what is available, let’s see what is not available and then let’s figure out what makes the most sense for our team moving forward.”

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/spo...rs/6431552002/

[REDREAD]

Per Rosenthal, Reds are open to trading Gray.

https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/st...96691349610497

If the Reds are going to trade Gray, they may as well look into what they can get for Castillo. I'd throw Suarez in the mix too, but given his down year, not a fan at selling low.

Regardless of what the Reds decide to do, they CAN'T screw up another rebuild. If you're going to rebuild, go all-in and do it properly. No halfway approach or waiting until players' values have declined to the point of getting garbage in return.

I am trying to say this carefully.
If the Reds are shopping Grey, this is more evidence that the Reds think Dick Williams failed in 2020, and are throwing in the
towel on 2021. If the team was serious about competing next year, Grey would be off the table. When I see stuff like this, I become more convinced that serious help is not going to be acquired this winter. I hope I am wrong though.