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Thread: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

  1. #61
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    Like I said, you can't conclude anything from 11 games.
    Yes you can. You can conclude that in his 11 playoff
    Games, he’s been awful.


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  3. #62
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Wire22Wire View Post
    Yes you can. You can conclude that in his 11 playoff
    Games, he’s been awful.
    Quality argument.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  4. #63
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    So blame the players, not the front office. They were established MLB hitters. Do you really believe the front office expected them to hit 220? I mean, really? And it was 60 games. MLB is designed around 162 games, for all you know they could have normalized to their career norms. The team hasn't sniffed the playoffs since 2013, and now they got in, now you just want to complain about, what exactly?? They improved, it's a stepping stone. If they fall back next season, yes, I'll be upset and disappointed as well. But all I ask for is progress, which they made.
    They got in because of the change in schedule and the playoff format. That ain't happening again.

    So the 60 game schedule/8 team playoff schedule helped them get in, but hurt their offensive production. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. SMH.

  5. #64
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    They got in because of the change in schedule and the playoff format. That ain't happening again.

    So the 60 game schedule/8 team playoff schedule helped them get in, but hurt their offensive production. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. SMH.
    No, I said it’s possible their output could have normalized over 162 games.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by blumj View Post
    Not having to field sometimes makes great hitters who aren'tgreat anymoregreat again because fieldingis what causes the injuries that causetheir hittingto not be as great as it used to be
    Good luck with that. You can't beat the age clock and Joey Votto is never going to be a great hitter in MLB again.

  8. #66
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    It is just a bad situation all the way around. I can't blame Joey. When his value was high he signed a long term contract and took more money on the back end of the contract because that is what the organization wanted. Now he is getting to be an advanced age for a player and his skills are diminishing. The organization knew it would happen when they signed him to a 12 year contract at the age of 29. Now we have to suffer through his diminished hitting and defensive skills as fans. It is tough and I don't enjoy it but in the end I think it is unrealistic to expect Joey to walk away from 75 million plus a 7 million dollar buyout. I wouldn't do it and no one on here would either.

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  10. #67
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Votto isnít a good/great player anymore. But letís look at the bright side.

    He had an .800 OPS season and was on pace for ~30 HR year if this were a 162 game year. His hitting improved this year (short season) from 2019 and his power dramatically ticked up.

    Thatís not what you want to be spending 25 million a year on but penciling that into the lineup everyday shouldnít sink a team.

    Iím hoping he cleans up his defense as sadly his poor play usually seems to be of the mental variety.

    Now if next year he is playing poorly and really hurting the team I have no problem in doing what is necessary.

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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Votto isn’t a good/great player anymore. But let’s look at the bright side.

    He had an .800 OPS season and was on pace for ~30 HR year if this were a 162 game year. His hitting improved this year (short season) from 2019 and his power dramatically ticked up.

    That’s not what you want to be spending 25 million a year on but penciling that into the lineup everyday shouldn’t sink a team.

    I’m hoping he cleans up his defense as sadly his poor play usually seems to be of the mental variety.

    Now if next year he is playing poorly and really hurting the team I have no problem in doing what is necessary.
    His presence on the field and in the lineup cost the reds wins in 2020

    Factor in his continued abysmal playoff production and his financial handcuff and the guys a nightmare

  13. #69
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    On a very long LTC you expect the player to be diminished later on. Reds have acknowledged this by adding other middle-of-the-order hitters.

    Joey still hit .800 OPS last year. BA was lower, but that’s true for the whole team. I see it mostly as a matter of team approach at the plate in combination with the shift.

    He’s fallen off defensively but I think it’s being exaggerated. A high percentage of the plays are still made.

    I’d find ways to give Joey more days off and more DH days. Reduce his first base time while generally keeping him in the lineup. See how it goes from there.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-23-2020 at 11:37 AM.

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  15. #70
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    On a very long LTC you expect the player to be diminished later on. Reds have acknowledged this by adding other middle-of-the-order hitters.

    Joey still hit .800 OPS last year. BA was lower, but that’s true for the whole team. I see it mostly as a matter of team approach at the plate in combination with the shift.

    He’s fallen off defensively but I think it’s being exaggerated. A high percentage of the plays are still made.

    I’d find ways to give Joey more days off and more DH days. Reduce his first base time while generally keeping him in the lineup. See how it goes from there.
    I think Votto needs many DH days, and also a day off about once per week. If Castellanos stays, it might make sense to give him a bunch of starts at 1B, and some DH time as well. There's a way to keep Votto fresh and keep productive hitters like Castellanos and Winker in the lineup most days (as long as the DH is made permanent). A creative rotation of Votto/Castellanos at 1B, Winker/Castellanos in RF and all three at DH could be a winner.

  16. #71
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitri View Post
    I think Votto needs many DH days, and also a day off about once per week. If Castellanos stays, it might make sense to give him a bunch of starts at 1B, and some DH time as well. There's a way to keep Votto fresh and keep productive hitters like Castellanos and Winker in the lineup most days (as long as the DH is made permanent). A creative rotation of Votto/Castellanos at 1B, Winker/Castellanos in RF and all three at DH could be a winner.
    As far as I can tell, Castellanos has never played 1B professionally. Yeah, I know he's a former third baseman, but considering we still aren't sure what spring training is going to look like, is it in the teams best interest for him to learn a new position before opening day 2021? Considering how he struggled after his hot start this year, I'd think you really just need him concentrating on getting his swing back plus trying to improve in right field.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  17. #72
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    On a very long LTC you expect the player to be diminished later on. Reds have acknowledged this by adding other middle-of-the-order hitters.

    Joey still hit .800 OPS last year. BA was lower, but that’s true for the whole team. I see it mostly as a matter of team approach at the plate in combination with the shift.

    He’s fallen off defensively but I think it’s being exaggerated. A high percentage of the plays are still made.

    I’d find ways to give Joey more days off and more DH days. Reduce his first base time while generally keeping him in the lineup. See how it goes from there.
    According to baseball reference and fan graphs, he was the worst first basemen (that played first base regularly) in the major leagues and he wasn't very close to the gentlemen in front of him.
    "Baseball is only dull to those with dull minds."

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  19. #73
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoeless Jeff View Post
    According to baseball reference and fan graphs, he was the worst first basemen (that played first base regularly) in the major leagues and he wasn't very close to the gentlemen in front of him.
    What criteria in fangraphs did you use?

    https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ate=2020-12-31
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  20. #74
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoeless Jeff View Post
    According to baseball reference and fan graphs, he was the worst first basemen (that played first base regularly) in the major leagues and he wasn't very close to the gentlemen in front of him.
    This is of little consequence.

    By far, most of the infield plays got made with no problem from first base.

    Not every stat is make-or-break. First base is not a premium defensive position. Can live with Votto there if they give him enough rest and occasional DH stints.
    Last edited by Kc61; 10-23-2020 at 06:12 PM.

  21. #75
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    Re: Joey Votto is a Nightmare

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    As far as I can tell, Castellanos has never played 1B professionally. Yeah, I know he's a former third baseman, but considering we still aren't sure what spring training is going to look like, is it in the teams best interest for him to learn a new position before opening day 2021? Considering how he struggled after his hot start this year, I'd think you really just need him concentrating on getting his swing back plus trying to improve in right field.
    Most likely, Reds would use Moose at first base when Joey isn’t there. They did that in September. They’d need someone to play second base in those instances. Farmer, maybe a new guy.


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