The suicide shift

[mth123]

It's not that easy. Period. The shift would have radically changed the numbers for a LOT of the beloved hitters of yore (yore being the time before the shift).

I agree. I just don't subscribe to the idea that you can make these kinds of changes to individual players at the major league level. It works once in a blue moon, but it fails a huge percentage of the time. If a hitter has a certain style or approach that doesn't fit the team's needs or vision,. trying to change him isn't the answer. The answer is move him and get a different player.

[mth123]

Of course it's not easy. It's not easy getting to the major leagues. I'm just not in favor of restricting defenses because guys would rather swing for the fences. Defenses are basically giving hitters a base hit, if they'll take it...and can do it.

A player of yore summed it up, "I keep my eyes clear and hit 'em where they ain't".

I think there are players that can do that. The Reds need to get a couple. Trying to turn the current guys into that is a fools errand.

[malcontent]

ETA--- the hard pulled ground ball single to RF for a left-handed hitter used to be a thing (especially if you had a fast runner at first). That's so rare now. It limits what used to be an exciting play - runner streaking 1st to 3rd right fielder deciding if they can gun them or not. Etc.

I miss it. I miss that part of the game. The shift really has changed significant ways the game is played. Probably showing my age here as I hit 50 in a few months - but I don't think the game is better for it.

IMO, it's ridiculous that they ever allowed things to reach this point. Anyone with a brain could have foreseen it.

[membengal]

IMO, it's ridiculous that they ever allowed things to reach this point. Anyone with a brain could have foreseen it.

I mean, I kinda have a brain (on the good days anyway) and I didn't fully comprehend the changes that it would bring. Maybe because I didn't think it would be universally adopted. That's on me.

That said, I can see it now, and I am old enough to remember the before, and I don't think this current version of huge emphasis on power to beat the shift has made the game better. But, again, I am creeping perilously close to "get off my lawn" age and acknowledge I may be stubborn. That said, I don't find this version of baseball enjoyable to watch. It is far more boring as compared to what I knew from age 4 - age 40.

[757690]

I think there are players that can do that. The Reds need to get a couple. Trying to turn the current guys into that is a fools errand.

I think we are going to see players who can beat the shift coming up in the next few years.

I believe there was an article around 10 years ago that provided data that once a hitter reaches the major leagues, they don’t (can’t) change. And we’ve seen that with guys like Bruce, Stubbs, B. Hamilton, etc., so I don’t expect too many MLB hitters to adjust to the shift.

But if you teach hitters a different approach from day one that they are drafted/signed, I think they’ll able to bring that approach with them when they make the bigs.

[mth123]

I mean, I kinda have a brain and I didn't fully comprehend the changes that it would bring. Maybe because I didn't think it would be universally adopted. That's on me.

That said, I can see it now, and I am old enough to remember the before, and I don't think this current version of huge emphasis on power to beat the shift has made the game better. But, again, I am creeping perilously close to "get off my lawn" age and acknowledge I may be stubborn. But, I don't find this version of baseball enjoyable to watch. It is far more boring compared to what I knew from age 4 - age 40.

I'm in the middle. I don't like making rules about such things either though. I do think the shift has caused a change in the game, but I still think it can be neutralized with the right personnel. The Reds problem is that they don't have guys like that other than Shogo. It's not about how the players are coached, it's about who the players are.

[malcontent]

But, again, I am creeping perilously close to "get off my lawn" age and acknowledge I may be stubborn. That said, I don't find this version of baseball enjoyable to watch. It is far more boring compared to what I knew from age 4 - age 40.

It's just a single short step to embracing your "get off my lawn age". You'll never regret taking it.

[membengal]

I'm in the middle. I don't like making rules about such things either though. I do think the shift has caused a change in the game, but I still think it can be neutralized with the right personnel. The Reds problem is that they don't have guys like that other than Shogo. It's not about how the players are coached, it's about who the players are.

I guess. I don't see a ton of teams with a lot of those kinds of hitters. At the midpoint in the playoffs 57% of the runs had been scored courtesy of the long ball. That's how the game is played now. And that's among the theoretically best teams in the sport.

- - - Updated - - -

It's just a single short step to embracing your "get off my lawn age". You'll never regret taking it.

I have decided that I am looking forward to it. 30-year-old me is screaming "hypocrite" at current me. I am ignoring him.

[Ron Madden]

When the defense moves into the shift the guy on the mound is throwing pitches that make it extremely difficult for a hitter to go the other way... It ain't that easy

[mth123]

When the defense moves into the shift the guy on the mound is throwing pitches that make it extremely difficult for a hitter to go the other way... It ain't that easy

Absolutely correct. I still think some guys could but the Reds roster has only one of that type of player. Membengal is right though. All of baseball is low of that type these days.

[membengal]

Absolutely correct. I still think some guys could but the Reds roster has only one of that type of player. Membengal is right though. All of baseball is low of that type these days.

It's because of the reaction to the extreme shift and the emphasis on power above all else that I think is a part of that reaction (and also a part of the general current view of the data crowd). The type of players that are needed to do what you want them to do are in very short supply and I don't see that changing in what is coming through what is left of the minors.

I just have no idea how that swings back the other way UNLESS the powers-that-be make the extreme shift illegal. Put some developmental emphasis on the kind of hitters that used to have value (at the least, more value than they do at current).

[*BaseClogger*]

As soon as a player proves they can consistently beat the shift teams will stop shifting that player and force them to hit different pitches against a conventional defensive alignment. It takes a very, very talented hitter to be productive under both scenarios...

[JFLegal]

If only professional hitters could practice; take many, many pitches in the cage, and work on slapping line-drives to the vast, wide open prairies opposite the shift. Averages might go up. Slugging percentage might go up because many of those could turn into doubles. Most importantly, the extreme shifts might change.

But, I guess that's a pipe-dream because I'm sure hitters aren't allowed to make adjustments like fielders can.

it's awful for the game. do you disagree? if so, why?

[Kc61]

Pitching and defense has become so difficult to penetrate that rules changes are in order.

It’s too hard for hitters to beat pitchers throwing high 90s, with high spin rates, with sophisticated shifting defenses behind them.

The reason for the “home run/walk” approach is that rallies with multiple hits per inning are too difficult. And normal BABIP variation makes it even tougher to rely on batted balls in play.

Some players will adjust, but mostly the game we see will continue. They should change the rules to reduce shifting and consider moving back the pitching mound.

[westofyou]

As the Rays announcers said last night, the shift reduces double plays (a traditional goal to squelch offense) but it heightens the chance to obtain an out in a game that values outs, thus devaluing the double play. Add in the batters going full three outcome and the game is stifled of its allure (action)

Addressing that reality is not going against the games traditions as the rules have changed plenty, often to address a deficiency of either offense, pitching or defense. Sure the play of the game sometimes adjusts itself and sometimes a rule change prods that change but chances are in today's environment that change wouldn't be something that would occur in a generation. If you want to address shifts then zone the field in a way that that doesn't allow weighted defense in the extreme. Each player has a zone that they have to SET up in, they don't have to patrol it allow, but have to start from within that zone. Try it out in the AFL or MIL, chances are it increases hits, awards line drives and creates action on the offensive side of the ball.