NBA Post Bubble - Draft & Offseason

[Bourgeois Zee]

Gordon is solid on defense. He’s committed to that end of the floor and has the elite athleticism to guard nearly any position.

His numbers are hit and miss, but mostly miss. DBRM looked good last year (10th), but were pedestrian at best the years before that. (Typically around 30th among PF.) Defensive rating has been bad throughout his career and got much worse last season. (113 is a sieve, especially for a PF.) His defensive win shares dropped last season pretty seriously as well. Most importantly, RAPTOR and PIPM hate Gordon's D, and the Magic were a much worse defense with him on the floor last season than with him off (109.7 - 105.9).

Part of that may be a change in philosophy or personell-- I'll admit I'm not a big Magic watcher and making Gordon play with Vucevic more often instead of one of the 10 0r 15 long-limbed 8-footers the Magic collect like baseball cards might flavor those numbers a bit unfairly. Part of it may well be noise. Perhaps defensive metrics are too much in their infancy to argue with as well.

[Kingspoint]

Pretty big fan of Net Rating on vs off the floor.

[Kingspoint]

Pretty big fan of Net Rating on vs off the floor.

Anyone who looked at the Warriors last season (small sample size for the first one I mention, yes, but the disparity was huge, not to mention the eye test Defensively) can understand why guys like Boogie and Whiteside only got miniscule offers from teams not sure what style they want to play.

[Rojo Rijo]

His numbers are hit and miss, but mostly miss. DBRM looked good last year (10th), but were pedestrian at best the years before that. (Typically around 30th among PF.) Defensive rating has been bad throughout his career and got much worse last season. (113 is a sieve, especially for a PF.) His defensive win shares dropped last season pretty seriously as well. Most importantly, RAPTOR and PIPM hate Gordon's D, and the Magic were a much worse defense with him on the floor last season than with him off (109.7 - 105.9).

Part of that may be a change in philosophy or personell-- I'll admit I'm not a big Magic watcher and making Gordon play with Vucevic more often instead of one of the 10 0r 15 long-limbed 8-footers the Magic collect like baseball cards might flavor those numbers a bit unfairly. Part of it may well be noise. Perhaps defensive metrics are too much in their infancy to argue with as well.

Yeah the metrics don’t paint a pretty picture but I attribute a lot of it, especially last year, to playing with defensive liabilities like Vucevic and Fournier as well as not having Isaac who is an elite defensive presence. I don’t think Gordon is some all world defender but his skill set and athletic ability makes him a valuable defender.


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[Bourgeois Zee]

Yeah the metrics don’t paint a pretty picture but I attribute a lot of it, especially last year, to playing with defensive liabilities like Vucevic and Fournier as well as not having Isaac who is an elite defensive presence. I don’t think Gordon is some all world defender but his skill set and athletic ability makes him a valuable defender.

You would totally know more about that than I do. It makes sense that the loss of Isaac would hurt everyone's numbers.

[M2]

Yeah the metrics don’t paint a pretty picture but I attribute a lot of it, especially last year, to playing with defensive liabilities like Vucevic and Fournier as well as not having Isaac who is an elite defensive presence. I don’t think Gordon is some all world defender but his skill set and athletic ability makes him a valuable defender.

Didn't Fournier used to be a good defender?

[Rojo Rijo]

Didn't Fournier used to be a good defender?

He went from below average to decent under Cliff but still he’s on the court/starting because of what he can do on offense

[Bourgeois Zee]

He went from below average to decent under Cliff but still he’s on the court/starting because of what he can do on offense

From afar, I like Fournier. He seems like a solid tertiary option on a good team-- a shooter from deep who can help as a two-position defender. As a third scorer on a better team, he likely wouldn't be asked to shoot as many of those 10 - 21 foot long twos (21+% of his shots came from those distances last season). Love his corner game too (54% on corner threes). I like that he plays with a bit of a chip on his shoulder as well.

Do the fans in Orlando like him, or do they struggle with that European flair, RR?

[M2]

From afar, I like Fournier. He seems like a solid tertiary option on a good team-- a shooter from deep who can help as a two-position defender. As a third scorer on a better team, he likely wouldn't be asked to shoot as many of those 10 - 21 foot long twos (21+% of his shots came from those distances last season). Love his corner game too (54% on corner threes). I like that he plays with a bit of a chip on his shoulder as well.

Do the fans in Orlando like him, or do they struggle with that European flair, RR?

If the economy didn't crash, I suspect he'd have opted out and gotten paid.

[adkindo]

From afar, I like Fournier. He seems like a solid tertiary option on a good team-- a shooter from deep who can help as a two-position defender. As a third scorer on a better team, he likely wouldn't be asked to shoot as many of those 10 - 21 foot long twos (21+% of his shots came from those distances last season). Love his corner game too (54% on corner threes). I like that he plays with a bit of a chip on his shoulder as well.

Do the fans in Orlando like him, or do they struggle with that European flair, RR?

not an Orlando fan, but have many in my daily circle....I think they see him for what he is....a nice contributor on a contending roster, but proved to not really be a foundational piece to build around. When he signed his new contract, he was the highest paid player on the Magic's roster....and I think at this point it is clear that Fournier should never be the highest paid player on a NBA roster.

[M2]

not an Orlando fan, but have many in my daily circle....I think they see him for what he is....a nice contributor on a contending roster, but proved to not really be a foundational piece to build around. When he signed his new contract, he was the highest paid player on the Magic's roster....and I think at this point it is clear that Fournier should never be the highest paid player on a NBA roster.

To be fair, he might have been the lowest paid player to be the highest paid player on his team.

[Kingspoint]

I've never liked anything about Fournier's game and feel that he's the biggest reason for the team's failures the last four years.

[M2]

I've never liked anything about Fournier's game and feel that he's the biggest reason for the team's failures the last four years.

That's absurd. By any measure Fournier's a solid player. Tall wings who can shoot reliably from outside the arc are in high demand. Their problem is they've got too many actively bad players. He's not a star who can lead a team to glory (also not paid like one), but it's not his fault he's the best shooter on a bad shooting team.

[Kingspoint]

That's absurd. By any measure Fournier's a solid player. Tall wings who can shoot reliably from outside the arc are in high demand. Their problem is they've got too many actively bad players. He's not a star who can lead a team to glory (also not paid like one), but it's not his fault he's the best shooter on a bad shooting team.

Not absurd at all. I've disagreed with a lot of your assessments of players. All the Magic do is play poorly when he's on the court. It can't be more simple than that. He doesn't pass the eyetest and he doesn't pass the-team-is-better-on-the-floor-with-him-than-without-him test.

[Bourgeois Zee]

That's absurd. By any measure Fournier's a solid player. Tall wings who can shoot reliably from outside the arc are in high demand. Their problem is they've got too many actively bad players. He's not a star who can lead a team to glory (also not paid like one), but it's not his fault he's the best shooter on a bad shooting team.

With a better point guard and a better wing partner, Fournier becomes a 20 ppg scorer, IMO. (Though a better PG and better wing partner might mitigate the need for Fournier to score 20 as well.) Orlando's draft and development history is so poor, though. Over the past decade, here's the list of their top draft picks over the last decade:

DeAndre Liggins (2nd round flyer who showed some defensive promise but a broken jumper)
Andrew Nicholson (Backup big-- pay attention, there will be a theme here.)
Victor Oladipo (PG they needed, but dealt shortly thereafter)
Aaron Gordon (Undersized PF with plenty of other options at four)
Dario Saric (Dealt to Philly)
Mario Hezonja (Never really developed, did he? How good would Devin Booker have looked in his stead?)
Domantas Sabonis (Great pick, but dealt to OKC-- case of steps forward and back)
Jonathan Isaac (Another PF/ C type? That's six bigs out of eight years in a league wherein a big isn't nearly as important as he has been historically.)
Mo Bamba (7 of 10. Sigh. And at #6 with Sexton, Bridges, SGA available. Big-time miss.)
Chuma Okeke (Knew he was going to miss the season anyway, but chose a guy whose biggest question is his jumper.)

Hindsight is certainly at play in my analysis, but the preponderance of bigs in a small man's league (and the relative lack of spending on quality backcourt mates for Fournier) is a blinking red neon sign. No es muy bueno.