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Thread: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Excellent points. There's no legitimate excuse for Texas to have been underachieving for the past decade or so. If the Longhorns fail to win out this regular season, it could get ugly for Herman.



    While I generally agree with this, I'll pose this question: Is the USC job a significantly better job - if not a better job at all - than the UCLA job in this day and age? It seems to me that given obvious equal proximity to talent, facilities etc., both CFB and CBB jobs seem equals anymore. The only differences lie with one carrying a stronger football tradition, while the other carrying a stronger basketball tradition. But that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.

    It just seems to me that the UCLA Bruins are the proverbial poster child for a higher profile CFB program which has drastically underachieved the past 30 years or so.
    UCLA has the benefits of being a good school in a great location. That's it. When it comes to football they have a TON of headwinds. The school and more specifically the UC system does not prioritize football and while they have pretty good resources/facilities when compared to the top 15-20 programs they are lacking. Also the Rose Bowl is a fantastic place to play a game on New Years Day in front of 100k fans. It is not a great place to play a game on a Saturday afternoon in October in front of 60k fans. It's almost 30 miles from UCLAs campus and most students have to take a bus to get there. It's in the middle of a golf course in an upscale neighborhood with no good way to get in and out.

    The USC job is WAY better. Donors care a lot more about football, much better facilities, on campus (more or less) stadium, etc.


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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    I don't know how many on here know this, but former Michigan RB Mike Hart is the Associate Head Coach for IU.

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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Assembly Hall View Post
    I don't know how many on here know this, but former Michigan RB Mike Hart is the Associate Head Coach for IU.
    Thanks for making me feel old. He was there when I was.
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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Excellent points. There's no legitimate excuse for Texas to have been underachieving for the past decade or so. If the Longhorns fail to win out this regular season, it could get ugly for Herman.



    While I generally agree with this, I'll pose this question: Is the USC job a significantly better job - if not a better job at all - than the UCLA job in this day and age? It seems to me that given obvious equal proximity to talent, facilities etc., both CFB and CBB jobs seem equals anymore. The only differences lie with one carrying a stronger football tradition, while the other carrying a stronger basketball tradition. But that and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.

    It just seems to me that the UCLA Bruins are the proverbial poster child for a higher profile CFB program which has drastically underachieved the past 30 years or so.
    Just for fun I looked at the 2021 247 rankings. The state of California has a total of 32 4* or better players, Michigan has 11. In 2020 California has another 32 and the state of Michigan had 10.

    USC is the school in California, and if they get the right coach in there, he can lock down the state of California and all of a sudden you have top 5 classes without a doubt. Michigan doesn't have that fertile recruiting grounds, and over the past few years have been fighting off OSU and MSU for the state of Michigan guys.

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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Just for fun I looked at the 2021 247 rankings. The state of California has a total of 32 4* or better players, Michigan has 11. In 2020 California has another 32 and the state of Michigan had 10.

    USC is the school in California, and if they get the right coach in there, he can lock down the state of California and all of a sudden you have top 5 classes without a doubt. Michigan doesn't have that fertile recruiting grounds, and over the past few years have been fighting off OSU and MSU for the state of Michigan guys.
    Did you check the state of Connecticutt? New York? LOL

    Don Fishcher, radio voice of the Hoosiers, mentioned Michigan's "make-up" during the pre-game of the UM/IU game.

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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Texas is a better job than Michigan. Texas can close the boardes of Texas and have top 5 classes easily. Herman hasn't done that, and things are getting strange down there.

    Michigan is a great job, I would put it behind OSU, Bama, Texas, and USC. I think its on par with ND, PSU, Oklahoma, Georgia, etc. Where Michigan has struggled is the state isn't a talent hot bed that it once was, its not as talented as Ohio (their main rival) and they are fighting with MSU for in state recruits. Michigan needs to expand their footprint, and instead of going south into Ohio they have chosen the football hot bed of Connecticut.

    The right coach can get Michigan rolling, but I wonder what that look like. Colin Cowherd brings this up about Michigan quite a bit, but they have one 12 win season in 100 years whereas OSU has 7 in the past decade. I think they need to come up with an identity as to what they want to become and attack it from there. They need to start with top 10 recruiting classes year in year out with a top 5 thrown in there every so often. They need to get that QB who can take them to the next level. One of the podcast I listen to talk about how they don't need their Urban Meyer, they need their Jim Tressel.
    In theory I would agree on Texas but that is where recruiting has changed nationally. The fact that Ohio State can get five star recruits in Texas and never play a game in the state.

    Alabama recruiting in California is the same way.
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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeRed27 View Post
    UCLA has the benefits of being a good school in a great location. That's it. When it comes to football they have a TON of headwinds. The school and more specifically the UC system does not prioritize football and while they have pretty good resources/facilities when compared to the top 15-20 programs they are lacking. Also the Rose Bowl is a fantastic place to play a game on New Years Day in front of 100k fans. It is not a great place to play a game on a Saturday afternoon in October in front of 60k fans. It's almost 30 miles from UCLAs campus and most students have to take a bus to get there. It's in the middle of a golf course in an upscale neighborhood with no good way to get in and out.

    The USC job is WAY better. Donors care a lot more about football, much better facilities, on campus (more or less) stadium, etc.
    I visited Pasadena for the first time this past February and I was absolutely blown away by the area surrounding the Rose Bowl - Some awesome views of the Rose Bowl from the top floor of the Gamble Hose, which I toured - but I can certainly understand why the logistical issues (traffic and otherwise) of filling the stadium with UCLA students and fans.

    Anyway, according to National Media talking-heads, it's been no secret that UCLA's athletic department has gained a reputation of (relatively speaking) failing to pay enough to attract high-profile quality coaches in both hoops and football, and several Redzoners, myself included, touched upon this during their last search for a basketball coach. But apparently, they've really upped their game in regards to upgraded facilities (and/or the promise of such), otherwise, they wouldn't have landed Chip Kelly - underwhelming as his tenure has been so far - without resources in the ballpark of USC's.

    Lastly, for the sake of clarification, my intent of posing the question about the USC and UCLA jobs was not to imply that we should expect less from USC and/or that USC is not a top-tier CFB job - it clearly is. Rather, to point out that we should expect more from UCLA as a football program, basketball history first or not.
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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Just for fun I looked at the 2021 247 rankings. The state of California has a total of 32 4* or better players, Michigan has 11. In 2020 California has another 32 and the state of Michigan had 10.
    Thanks for posting this. I'm not surprised at all that the state of California produces significantly more 4 star players than the state of Michigan, but I certainly did not expect a 3-to-1 ratio.

    Regardless - and I may be wrong here - it is my understanding that Harbaugh's main issue hasn't really been recruiting, as he has recruited some highly rated classes. It's that he simply hasn't coached them up. Or is it a combination of both factors?
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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    I visited Pasadena for the first time this past February and I was absolutely blown away by the area surrounding the Rose Bowl - Some awesome views of the Rose Bowl from the top floor of the Gamble Hose, which I toured - but I can certainly understand why the logistical issues (traffic and otherwise) of filling the stadium with UCLA students and fans.

    Anyway, according to National Media talking-heads, it's been no secret that UCLA's athletic department has gained a reputation of (relatively speaking) failing to pay enough to attract high-profile quality coaches in both hoops and football, and several Redzoners, myself included, touched upon this during their last search for a basketball coach. But apparently, they've really upped their game in regards to upgraded facilities (and/or the promise of such), otherwise, they wouldn't have landed Chip Kelly - underwhelming as his tenure has been so far - without resources in the ballpark of USC's.

    Lastly, for the sake of clarification, my intent of posing the question about the USC and UCLA jobs was not to imply that we should expect less from USC and/or that USC is not a top-tier CFB job - it clearly is. Rather, to point out that we should expect more from UCLA as a football program, basketball history first or not.
    Oh yeah I think UCLA is without question the biggest underachieving program in probably the last 50 years at least.

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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    A lot of people have been saying the same thing about Michigan just not being a top tier program anymore. It's true for now, but I don't believe it's not capable of it. What was Clemson before Swinney? Alabama hadn't been relevant for at least a decade before Saban got there. Same for USC before Carroll.

    Like you said, this next coach hire better hit or they could be headed for Nebraska territory.
    I am just no buying it...sure they could head in that direction in the wins/losses category....but the infrastructure and support of the program is on a different level. There are people/families in place that will never allow Michigan football to not have the resources to compete with anyone in the country. Just grab the donor list for the last 3 decades and notice how many of the same names show up year after year...then with large donations every few years...then notice how many Jr.'s, II's and III's will show up on the list years after a patriarch/matriarch ceased donations. We saw Notre Dame struggle for years....barely above mediocrity, but the shine on the head coaching job never really faded.....it will not fade at Michigan either because of a decade of missing expectations on the field.
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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    To discuss the Texas recruiting, what OSU has done recently is gone to places where "the" program is down. They have made inroads in Texas and California because Texas and USC have been dumpster fires. The first thing a new coach at those programs needs to do is close the boarders and start winning battles. There were 3 5* QB's this past cycle out of California (considering Stroud one because he was borderline) and they went to Alabama, Clemson, and OSU. OSU has made a killing in Texas recently because Texas has been down. Now a lot of guys they get have Ohio connections, but there is no way Garrett Wilson, Jackson Smith-Njigba, JK Dobbins, Okuda all should have gone to OSU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Thanks for posting this. I'm not surprised at all that the state of California produces significantly more 4 star players than the state of Michigan, but I certainly did not expect a 3-to-1 ratio.

    Regardless - and I may be wrong here - it is my understanding that Harbaugh's main issue hasn't really been recruiting, as he has recruited some highly rated classes. It's that he simply hasn't coached them up. Or is it a combination of both factors?
    Starting with 2021 here is where Michigan ranks 9, 14, 8, 22, and 5. I don't know the ins and outs of Michigan's recruiting like I do OSU, but OSU's worst class in that span has been ranked 14th, a result of it being a small class but was 3rd in average rating. Michigan's issues start with recruiting, they aren't recruiting to be at the elite level. They are recruiting to be a fringe top 10 team, is that where they want to be?

    Harbaugh has worn out his welcome, and there are some glaring coaching and development issues. I do think Harbaugh's career may look different had he beaten OSU in 2016. But since then, the games haven't been close, the talent on the field hasn't been close, and Michigan looks lost.

    They are a good program, they have cool uniforms (I admit), they have the Jordan brand on all their swag, they are recognizable all over the place. I don't think that is what the fans want, and I don't think Harbaugh is the guy to take them to the next level.

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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    There are definitely advantages for schools in states that have many blue chip (4/5 Star) recruits, but I am not sure it is significant as we often think. For example, most years 4 states produce about half of the blue chip football recruits in the country (Florida, Texas, California, and Georgia), but those 4 states are feeding grounds for every other major program in the country, and many of those outside schools have long and deep relationships in the state. Also, the first three of those states are feeding multiple major programs within their state border. Tom Herman can do a better job in Texas recruiting, but he is never locking down the state because Riley, Gundy, Fisher, Orgeron and several others are going to be there making strong pitches to those same players. In contrast, a state that produces a material amount of blue chip players, but far less than the big 4 such as Ohio can pretty much be put on lockdown by Ohio State. The external competition is less and their brand within the state borders places a shadow over any competition. So who really is in the better position to recruit.....Texas or Ohio State? Btw, the California schools have it rough trying to keep blue chippers in state because California literally feeds the entire West Coast and schools like Oregon have deep roots in some regions in California....and so much of it is about the relationship of the high school coach with the college coach.
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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    There are definitely advantages for schools in states that have many blue chip (4/5 Star) recruits, but I am not sure it is significant as we often think. For example, most years 4 states produce about half of the blue chip football recruits in the country (Florida, Texas, California, and Georgia), but those 4 states are feeding grounds for every other major program in the country, and many of those outside schools have long and deep relationships in the state. Also, the first three of those states are feeding multiple major programs within their state border. Tom Herman can do a better job in Texas recruiting, but he is never locking down the state because Riley, Gundy, Fisher, Orgeron and several others are going to be there making strong pitches to those same players. In contrast, a state that produces a material amount of blue chip players, but far less than the big 4 such as Ohio can pretty much be put on lockdown by Ohio State. The external competition is less and their brand within the state borders places a shadow over any competition. So who really is in the better position to recruit.....Texas or Ohio State? Btw, the California schools have it rough trying to keep blue chippers in state because California literally feeds the entire West Coast and schools like Oregon have deep roots in some regions in California....and so much of it is about the relationship of the high school coach with the college coach.
    Here is where I disagree. California and Texas are being raided by other programs because USC and Texas aren't winning recruiting battles in that state. In the 2021 class, Texas has one commit of the top 20 players in Texas. They are a toss up for one other kid, and that is it. That is unacceptable and that is why programs fail and coaches get fired. Sure OSU is in the area, and sure Bama, A&M, Oklahoma, etc are all recruiting the heck out of Texas, but part of that reason is Texas is not doing their job.

    Texas and California are feeding the top programs nationwide because USC and Texas aren't doing their job. It should be far easier for Texas to recruit the state than OSU, Bama, Clemson, etc. Sure there are going to be some misses in there, it happens with every program. But if LSU started losing players in Louisiana alarm bells would be raised. Kirby Smart came in and recruited Georgia better and all of a sudden started turning out top 5 classes year in year out. Although his biggest mistake will forever haunt him!

    There are several schools in the country where they have a massive advantage because of local talent. Texas and USC should be able to lock down half of the top 10 or 20 players in state and then build the class from there. They aren't doing that and its showing.

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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Here is where I disagree. California and Texas are being raided by other programs because USC and Texas aren't winning recruiting battles in that state. In the 2021 class, Texas has one commit of the top 20 players in Texas. They are a toss up for one other kid, and that is it. That is unacceptable and that is why programs fail and coaches get fired. Sure OSU is in the area, and sure Bama, A&M, Oklahoma, etc are all recruiting the heck out of Texas, but part of that reason is Texas is not doing their job.

    Texas and California are feeding the top programs nationwide because USC and Texas aren't doing their job. It should be far easier for Texas to recruit the state than OSU, Bama, Clemson, etc. Sure there are going to be some misses in there, it happens with every program. But if LSU started losing players in Louisiana alarm bells would be raised. Kirby Smart came in and recruited Georgia better and all of a sudden started turning out top 5 classes year in year out. Although his biggest mistake will forever haunt him!

    There are several schools in the country where they have a massive advantage because of local talent. Texas and USC should be able to lock down half of the top 10 or 20 players in state and then build the class from there. They aren't doing that and its showing.
    We agree Texas should do better in Texas, but I just think it is a very unique state from at least what I have been told. It is my understanding that Houston is and has been LSU territory for a long time....the LSU connections are as strong as or even stronger in some cases than with UT and TA&M. Then there is major pressure from Dallas on up to the border from Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to a lesser degree. West Texas is far less rich in talent, but it is Texas Tech country or at least a region that Tech can compete with both UT and TA&M. On top of that, TCU and Baylor offer a very unique and different pitch to kids....and some ratio (1 of 20?) is actually going to prefer the smaller private school that plays big time football. Then your elite programs that recruit nationally (Ohio State, Clemson, Bama, Notre Dame, etc.) are always going to be tough competition anywhere they stick their nose. Finally, it is 2020 and these 18 year olds are exposed to an exponential amount of information compared to just 20 years ago which opens up the world to them with less fear about getting away from home.

    One more issue that is big in Florida, which I assume is an issue in Texas also.....many of these kids were not actually born in the state. They may have moved there with their parents as a 10 year old because the migration to these states has been constant for decades....therefore there may not be that indoctrinated loyalty many of us have for our teams. I graduated high school in Florida in the late 90's, but I always bled Gold and Blue....and on my high school football team there was only 1 kid that was actually born in the state of Florida.

    In the end, we do agree that Herman has to do much better in Texas to get Texas back in the national conversation.
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    Re: College Football 2020 Part Two: Will They Finish the Season?

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    We agree Texas should do better in Texas, but I just think it is a very unique state from at least what I have been told. It is my understanding that Houston is and has been LSU territory for a long time....the LSU connections are as strong as or even stronger in some cases than with UT and TA&M. Then there is major pressure from Dallas on up to the border from Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to a lesser degree. West Texas is far less rich in talent, but it is Texas Tech country or at least a region that Tech can compete with both UT and TA&M. On top of that, TCU and Baylor offer a very unique and different pitch to kids....and some ratio (1 of 20?) is actually going to prefer the smaller private school that plays big time football. Then your elite programs that recruit nationally (Ohio State, Clemson, Bama, Notre Dame, etc.) are always going to be tough competition anywhere they stick their nose. Finally, it is 2020 and these 18 year olds are exposed to an exponential amount of information compared to just 20 years ago which opens up the world to them with less fear about getting away from home.

    One more issue that is big in Florida, which I assume is an issue in Texas also.....many of these kids were not actually born in the state. They may have moved there with their parents as a 10 year old because the migration to these states has been constant for decades....therefore there may not be that indoctrinated loyalty many of us have for our teams. I graduated high school in Florida in the late 90's, but I always bled Gold and Blue....and on my high school football team there was only 1 kid that was actually born in the state of Florida.

    In the end, we do agree that Herman has to do much better in Texas to get Texas back in the national conversation.
    In the end, I find recruiting fascinating and nauseating at the same time. There is something about caring where a 17 year old kid goes to school that makes me icky, but its the lifeblood of college football. The reality is I can only really follow what goes on at OSU and things that affect OSU's recruiting. There philosophy has long been lock down the guys in state you want, and then go to where a major program is down and recruit that area hard. They did it in Georgia when they were down, they did it in Florida with Urban's ties and the big schools down there being down, and they are doing it in Texas and Southern California because the two major schools there are down.

    I think if USC and Texas get things rolling again, and I realize the dynamics are different in those states, the other major programs won't be as big of players in that state. They will still recruit the state, but they probably don't want to get in dog fights with the local powerhouse because you lose those more often than not. Texas should be a national power, and if they want a guy, they should be able to beat Baylor, TCU and TTU, and also fend off A&M in most cases.

    The next growing battle ground state is Arizona, both universities there are underperformers and the talent is all over the place.


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