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Thread: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

  1. #316
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I sincerely doubt that. Thou shalt not spend thy nest egg.
    Then why did Williams spend all that money in free agency last winter if his main priority was
    to inherit as much money as possible? Weren't you a big fan of Dick W when he was here?
    I can't remember, but I think so. Why poo poo on him now and claim that he only cared about the
    bottom line?

    I didn't think Dick W was a good baseball guy, but he really wanted to win, in my opinion.
    I also think if resigning was his choice (I Don't know), part of the reason was this impending cost cutting.
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  3. #317
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I don't think Dick Williams would have bragged about the extra years of control if he didn't intend on bringing them back.
    Did I miss something where Dick Williams "bragged" about acquiring a couple guys they could've controlled beyond 2020? If I recall correctly, when they traded for Bradley and Goodwin, he was asked if that was a factor in their decision to trade for them, and he confirmed it was, but I'd hardly call that bragging.

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  5. #318
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Then why did Williams spend all that money in free agency last winter if his main priority was
    to inherit as much money as possible? Weren't you a big fan of Dick W when he was here?
    I can't remember, but I think so. Why poo poo on him now and claim that he only cared about the
    bottom line?

    I didn't think Dick W was a good baseball guy, but he really wanted to win, in my opinion.
    I also think if resigning was his choice (I Don't know), part of the reason was this impending cost cutting.
    He barely parted with a nickel for two years until after 2018 when it was reported Castellini was on the warpath about how terrible his rebuild was going. Krall's elevation coincided with them opening the vault and making far more creative baseball moves. Don't see any evidence other than DW was an owner-GM who minded the family money.
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  6. #319
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    He barely parted with a nickel for two years until after 2018 when it was reported Castellini was on the warpath about how terrible his rebuild was going. Krall's elevation coincided with them opening the vault and making far more creative baseball moves. Don't see any evidence other than DW was an owner-GM who minded the family money.
    Really appreciate you as a poster, M2, but your read of front office machinations is beyond me.

    You could read the player management decisions and front office events in a dozen different ways. Occam's razor suggests it's likely less convoluted than you're putting out there.
    Last edited by BillDoran; 12-08-2020 at 01:47 AM.

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  8. #320
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Really appreciate you as a poster, M2, but your read of front office machinations is beyond me.

    You could read the player management decisions and front office events in a dozen different ways. Occam's razor suggests it's likely less convoluted than you're putting out there.
    Seems simple to me. Williams did nada for two years, showed no invention, spent no money. Things changed when Krall got elevated (and after the Castellinis supposedly went on the warpath after the disaster start in 2018). I'll believe any number of things can happen in this universe, but Occam's Razor doesn't cut anywhere near DW pivoting 180 degrees two winters ago.
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  9. #321
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Seems simple to me. Williams did nada for two years, showed no invention, spent no money. Things changed when Krall got elevated (and after the Castellinis supposedly went on the warpath after the disaster start in 2018). I'll believe any number of things can happen in this universe, but Occam's Razor doesn't cut anywhere near DW pivoting 180 degrees two winters ago.
    To me, the easier read is they were in tear-down mode when Williams came on board, and when Krall took the GM role, they were starting to build again. Krall's elevation was happenstance or at least secondary to the spending/acquisition decision. Perhaps he had some say in the particulars of the Farmer/Puig/Wood deal, but he doesn't get credit for having a green light to be aggressive and take on salary. That came from above.

    To make any presumptions about who argued for Puig versus Joc Pederson or approved of Jeter Downs and not Alex Blandino is way too far into the weeds for us rubes. We have no clue. It may well have been Buddy Bell for all we know. Why peg this to Krall with such certainty?

    I'm also of the impression that Williams had final say (non-ownership class) until he walked away this offseason. I've never read anything to the contrary.

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  11. #322
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    To me, the easier read is they were in tear-down mode when Williams came on board, and when Krall took the GM role, they were starting to build again. Krall's elevation was happenstance or at least secondary to the spending/acquisition decision. Perhaps he had some say in the particulars of the Farmer/Puig/Wood deal, but he doesn't get credit for having a green light to be aggressive and take on salary. That came from above.

    To make any presumptions about who argued for Puig versus Joc Pederson or approved of Jeter Downs and not Alex Blandino is way too far into the weeds for us rubes. We have no clue. It may well have been Buddy Bell for all we know. Why peg this to Krall with such certainty?

    I'm also of the impression that Williams had final say (non-ownership class) until he walked away this offseason. I've never read anything to the contrary.
    Seems to me Williams had rubberstamp authority. If the guy was a capable baseball exec who made a pile of moves that dragged the Reds out of the cellar, then other franchises will be seeking his services. My expectation is no one else will come knocking and he's out of baseball for good.
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  12. #323
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Seems to me Williams had rubberstamp authority. If the guy was a capable baseball exec who made a pile of moves that dragged the Reds out of the cellar, then other franchises will be seeking his services. My expectation is no one else will come knocking and he's out of baseball for good.
    We both know he's not going to take a job with another organization. His own family owns the Reds. Him walking away this offseason just underscores how little we actually know about front office politics.

    Did he disappoint the family after they gave him the PIN to the company account? Did ownership say it's time for another tear-down? Did he really not like the hours? We have no idea!

    Agree to disagree.


    Reds best hit on some relievers. If the bullpen struggles or needs a piece at the deadline, it'll look pretty stupid to have non-tendered Bradley. Here's hoping as the offseason plays out, these non-tenders and the Iglesias trade make more sense (beyond stuffing cash into owners' coffers).

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    REDREAD (12-08-2020)

  14. #324
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    The sticking point on Dick Williams is the debate on whether or not he was a "baseball guy." Are any of the executives in baseball, who graduate from Harvard with an MBA, and join the statistical analytics department of a baseball organization and work their way up through the rank over 10-12 years, considered "baseball guys"?

    I would agree that Williams was kind of stuck in a "maintenance" mode for a couple years, forced to wait on the rebuild to "end." At the time of the trade with the Dodgers (Bailey for Puig and Wood, etc.), I thought it was a good trade. Unfortunately, Wood got hurt and things just didn't work out, but on paper, I thought the team was better. The Bauer trade, the Sonny Gray trade, and the FA signings last off-season were positive steps. I know there are a lot of folks saying "I-told-you-so" over the signing of Castellanos and Moose, but many of those folks are the same folks who were praising those same signings last winter (a little harmless revisionist history, I guess).

    I think Dick Williams understood analytics. Granted, perhaps he wasn't from a coaching/scouting background, but he had learned the difference between WAR and WHIP, and had learned how to use them to at least give an educated opinion on players. He had plenty of "baseball guys" as advisors. Williams recognized that the scouting and development departments were not working, and he oversaw an overhaul of both. It's way too early to tell if he was successful, but at least he made the effort to move personnel around, and bring some new people in, in order to shake things up. Williams also increased the analytics department. A year or so ago, there was an article that came out that listed the Reds as having one of the largest analytics departments in baseball. Point is, that the organization as a whole is in better shape when Williams stepped down, than it was when he took over.
    Last edited by MikeS21; 12-08-2020 at 09:48 AM.
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  16. #325
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    We both know he's not going to take a job with another organization. His own family owns the Reds. Him walking away this offseason just underscores how little we actually know about front office politics.

    Did he disappoint the family after they gave him the PIN to the company account? Did ownership say it's time for another tear-down? Did he really not like the hours? We have no idea!

    Agree to disagree.
    I agree there's a ton we don't know. Yet we have a long history on what Williams family values are when it comes to running the Reds. I will also submit you can't expect a GM to understand opening up the purse strings when his inheritance depends on not understanding it. I don't buy any part of Dick Williams as an agile baseball mind or an owner-exec in favor of an aggressive spending policy.
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

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  18. #326
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by Boss-Hog View Post
    Did I miss something where Dick Williams "bragged" about acquiring a couple guys they could've controlled beyond 2020? If I recall correctly, when they traded for Bradley and Goodwin, he was asked if that was a factor in their decision to trade for them, and he confirmed it was, but I'd hardly call that bragging.
    Ok, "Bragging" was an exaggeration, but he was pointing it out when he was talking about the trade.
    I still think DickW planned on bringing them back in 2021 if it was up to him.
    Goodwin was the useful 4th OF that they hoped Shogo was going to be.
    Bradley filled a hole in the pen.
    The Reds were very marginal contenders last year, seems odd to rent two guys for such a short time and then
    nontender them, unless of course the team plans not to contend in 2021.
    I still think DickW wanted the job of GM because he wanted to bring a championship here, and have a legacy.
    That's why he worked so hard and sacrificed family time.
    He certainly didn't need to do it for the money.
    His plan was flawed, but he was trying to build the Reds into a long term contender.
    It was not an elaborate prank to build up his inheritance.
    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  19. #327
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    He barely parted with a nickel for two years until after 2018 when it was reported Castellini was on the warpath about how terrible his rebuild was going. Krall's elevation coincided with them opening the vault and making far more creative baseball moves. Don't see any evidence other than DW was an owner-GM who minded the family money.
    Ok, so in your opinion, Krall is responsible for all the bad signings last year, and for the trade deadline deals?
    Dick W was just a figurehead that really didn't do anything?
    I'm curious if that's what you think.
    If true, the Reds are in big trouble, because the person responsible for all those moves really didn't know what he was doing.

    Edit: Nevermind, in another post, you said DickW was just a rubber stamp.
    Ok.. Well, I guess the Reds save some money letting him resign then, since he served no purpose.
    Heaven help us if Krall was responsible for all those mistakes.
    IMO, the best thing Dick W brought to the table was that he was at least partially responsible for loosening up the purse strings. He sold ownership on the plan last winter. Even if that means Krall did all the work, and Dick W had to talk ownership into writing the checks (I'm guessing the rubber stamp at least did that?)
    If Dick W was just a rubber stamp, why did he complain about the long hours of the job?
    Why did he seem kind of stressed out?
    He was heavily emotionally invested in last season, because it was his plan, IMO.
    Last edited by REDREAD; 12-08-2020 at 02:57 PM.
    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  20. #328
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Ok, so in your opinion, Krall is responsible for all the bad signings last year, and for the trade deadline deals?
    Dick W was just a figurehead that really didn't do anything?
    I'm curious if that's what you think.
    If true, the Reds are in big trouble, because the person responsible for all those moves really didn't know what he was doing.
    I think Krall was the one making the deals and doing the work. Completely disagree with your characterization of the signings and deals.
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

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