Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

[Wonderful Monds]

I thought I saw a tweet yesterday that there are actually less non-tendered players this offseason than last. Maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong? If so, this seems like something we're overhyping as Reds fans since they non-tendered so many players. I just don't think many of the players non-tendered yesterday would have been offered arbitration if your rule had been in place, and it's a non-zero unfavorable impact on the players' negotiating ability if you remove their previous team from the bidding. If the previous team wasn't going to be part of the bidding they wouldn't be impacted by your rule since they would non-tender either way, right?

That’s correct but when you look at the kinds of players being non tendered it paints a different picture. Every single team is now below its payroll compared to the end of last year. Gonna see if I can find the tweet.

[Mitri]

glad they signed farmer who else would swing at a ball a foot over his head with the bases loaded and nobody out

Sometimes, you troll so good.

[Kc61]

One thing I'd be demanding in the new CBA if I was the MLBPA is if a team waives a player it can't re-sign him for a year. This business of working around the arbitration rules to slash a guy's salary needs to be stopped. Teams ought to be made to weigh whether they want to lose the player.

The Reds didn’t impose a lower salary on Farmer. They non-tendered him. As such, he had the option of free agency. He chose the Reds’ deal instead, apparently a split contract (lower salary if he’s in the minors).

Farmer had the right - under the current CBA - to walk away from the Reds once they non-tendered him. Indeed the Reds announcement said he had become a free agent.

Probably all arranged in advance on a consensual basis.

[jwdoc77]

Business leverage against assets all the time. You may not have $1M, but if you wanted an extra $100K, you should be able to access that easily by borrowing against this building.

If the Reds wanted to spend an extra $20M, they easily could get it.

Too an extent...but you nor I nor anyone else on this board have any idea of the Reds current cash flow or of Castellini and the ownerships leverage already. Maybe they are maxed...maybe they aren’t. Who knows. My point still stands that just be use the Reds are worth a billion, doesn’t necessarily mean there is extra cash laying around.

[RED VAN HOT]

It seems to boil down to this. The Reds believe they can use the savings to get a SS and replace the loss of the other players cheaper. Like others, I find it hard to believe they are seriously in the running to sign Bauer.

In the past the Reds have tended to underestimate the FA market, so we'll see.

[757690]

It seems to boil down to this. The Reds believe they can use the savings to get a SS and replace the loss of the other players cheaper. Like others, I find it hard to believe they are seriously in the running to sign Bauer.

In the past the Reds have tended to underestimate the FA market, so we'll see.

I think it’s less that they underestimate the market, it’s that they have to pay more to get players to play for the Reds.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Too an extent...but you nor I nor anyone else on this board have any idea of the Reds current cash flow or of Castellini and the ownerships leverage already. Maybe they are maxed...maybe they aren’t. Who knows. My point still stands that just be use the Reds are worth a billion, doesn’t necessarily mean there is extra cash laying around.

We know the team's value is over a billion dollars.

We know Castellini is worth over a billion dollars.

Ergo, we know he can afford to spend millions.

We now he's choosing not to spend millions on these particular players and has given them up for nothing.

We may disagree about everything else. His right to do what he wants with his club. His financial restraint. Or greed. How much he might lose on the team. If he's actually losing money on the team. Whether we should include team value in the discussion. What baseball might look like during the second season of a pandemic with a vaccine due... some time soon. Maybe. Cooking the books.

That's part of the reason we have the forum, right? To argue our opinions.

[Strikes Out Looking]

If Reds ownership can't afford to lose money during the couple of years that there is a pandemic and keep a competitive team then they need to either sell the team or move it to Montreal or Nashville. (I'm not in favor of either) - Maybe in 9 months, Bradley will show us that it was the right decision, but as of now, its seems like a small amount of money to save (they still need someone to pitch the 8th and I don't think someone earning the major league minimum is going to be doing it).

[M2]

I thought I saw a tweet yesterday that there are actually less non-tendered players this offseason than last. Maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong? If so, this seems like something we're overhyping as Reds fans since they non-tendered so many players. I just don't think many of the players non-tendered yesterday would have been offered arbitration if your rule had been in place, and it's a non-zero unfavorable impact on the players' negotiating ability if you remove their previous team from the bidding. If the previous team wasn't going to be part of the bidding they wouldn't be impacted by your rule since they would non-tender either way, right?

I was under the impression this was more widespread this season. If it's not and the Reds are just being cheap then perhaps don't make any major changes.

[Ron Madden]

I thought I saw a tweet yesterday that there are actually less non-tendered players this offseason than last. Maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong? If so, this seems like something we're overhyping as Reds fans since they non-tendered so many players. I just don't think many of the players non-tendered yesterday would have been offered arbitration if your rule had been in place, and it's a non-zero unfavorable impact on the players' negotiating ability if you remove their previous team from the bidding. If the previous team wasn't going to be part of the bidding they wouldn't be impacted by your rule since they would non-tender either way, right?

The number of players set free leaguewide to avoid salary arbitration was a record, but not the huge spike anticipated

Mark Feinsand
@Feinsand
Last year, 56 players were non-tendered. The predictions that this year would see a huge increase proved incorrect with the total at 59.

[podgejeff_]

We know the team's value is over a billion dollars.

We know Castellini is worth over a billion dollars.

Ergo, we know he can afford to spend millions.

We now he's choosing not to spend millions on these particular players and has given them up for nothing.

We may disagree about everything else. His right to do what he wants with his club. His financial restraint. Or greed. How much he might lose on the team. If he's actually losing money on the team. Whether we should include team value in the discussion. What baseball might look like during the second season of a pandemic with a vaccine due... some time soon. Maybe. Cooking the books.

That's part of the reason we have the forum, right? To argue our opinions.

For the record, Bob Castellini isn't worth over a billion dollars. His net worth is $400 million. He doesn't own the Reds exclusively, he leads the Reds ownership group with the majority of control. Bob isn't even the only owner in the Executive Office, it's shared by the Williams brothers. Castellini the CEO and the Williams guys are the Chairman and Vice Chairman respectively.

This entire group of people who currently own the Reds in different proportions:

Robert H. Castellini - W. Joseph Williams Jr. - Thomas L. Williams
Lindner Reds Baseball LLC - Frank Cohen - William J. Reik
Buy Buy Baseball, LLC - EMK Investment Company, LLC - Larry Sheakley - Jeffrey L. Wyler
Harry J. Fath - Jeffrey L. Gendell - Edwin J. Riguad, AACE, LLC - HKR Baseball, LLC - Ronald L. Sargent
John H. Wyant - George H. Vincent, Queen City Diamond, LLC - Heading for Home, LLC - Art Hauser

[mth123]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the plan was to fall backwards into the expanded playoffs and hope to get lucky. And I really hope they don’t permanently expand the playoffs (not only because it sucks just in its own right), but because I imagine that’ll be their strategy every year for the rest of time if that’s an option.

This is exactly what expanded play-offs will do. We see it every year with middling NBA teams. Cheapens teh seasons, cheapens the play-offs. I want less teams in, not more.

[mth123]

No way am I losing one second of sleep over the December '18 loss of Bailey, Downs, Gray and Rainey to the Dodgers and Nats, respectively. Given the state of the organization at the time - namely, the MLB roster - the aforementioned deals represented an acknowledgement of an abject failure of an organizational plan, which was promptly tossed into the trash can. That, in of itself, was huge, and the first step toward the road to respectability for the franchise.

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Absolutely.

[mth123]

Bullpen was an issue last year. Trade two prospects worth very little (and I could argue JVM was addition by subtraction) to help shore up the bullpen. Get 8 innings out of the reliever. 3 months later cut him? What?

This screams Krall trying very hard to be the smartest guy in the room to me.

I think it screams Krall following the orders he said he'd follow when he was promoted the previous guy in his job disagreed and resigned.

[mth123]

I'd get the baseball logic of moving Castellanos or Moustakas, provided they were adding elsewhere (probably 2B). If they moved Suarez or Gray it would have to be a deal to which they could not say no.

Trading Casteallanos and adding a second baseman (in addition to the assumed SS) is the exact move needed to fix the team on the field. The problem is Shogo really doesn't have the arm for RF and nobody else seems capable (Senzel probably ends up thier long term IMO), but Winker in LF with Senzel in Cf and a Shogo/Aquino tandem in RF (with Shogo playing some CF as well) wouldn't be teriible. Shogo can somewhat make up for his lack of arm by getting to the ball quickly and getting it back into the IF quickly (overlooked when people talk about play in RF - it's how Pete Rose was acceptable out there even though his arm was awful).

Move Votto, Moose and Suarez to a three guys for 3 spots rotation between 1B/3B and DH (with Moose being the guy who moves around) while having a major league caliber middle infield fixes a lot of stuff. Both the new guys at 2B and SS need to bring some offense with that defense or it doesn't work.