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Thread: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

  1. #286
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The players demand free market salaries, no salary cap. Owners would argue - we’ve absorbed a terrible season financially and yet we’re not allowed to cut costs? What kind of free market that?

    We can’t resolve all these issues here, there are arguments both ways, but it’s still early in the off-season and I’m holding my fire on the Reds until I see what the team looks like. The more expensive Reds of last year were much better but far from a finished product.
    First, the owners agreed to the terms of the CBA. Second, owners don’t have to pay these prices and many don’t. Third, the players were demanded to cut their salaries in order to make up for the owners lost revenue. The owners can’t now cry poor because of that lost revenue. That’s double dipping.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

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  4. #287
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    There is essentially a salary cap though, the luxury tax is effectively a salary cap.

    Anyway, you’re arguing this from sort of a legalistic view point, I’m arguing it from a moralistic and ethical one. The owners should absorb those losses because they can and because they will make that money back without a shred of doubt.
    Point blank.
    You’re arguing a quaisi-public responsibility for sports ownership. Owners might normally cut costs here. But given the nature of the sports business, you can’t now, there’s a responsibility to fans, to the public.

    it’s an interesting question, no easy answers. My hope is that it all works out with a very competitive Reds team on the field. Still possible.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-04-2020 at 07:50 PM.

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  6. #288
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    First, the owners agreed to the terms of the CBA. Second, owners don’t have to pay these prices and many don’t. Third, the players were demanded to cut their salaries in order to make up for the owners lost revenue. The owners can’t now cry poor because of that lost revenue. That’s double dipping.
    And as noted, there is reason for extreme amounts of skepticism towards any claims of major losses. I doubt any team suffered beyond merely making profits, but just lesser amounts than they used to. Which I have negative levels of sympathy for.

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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    First, the owners agreed to the terms of the CBA. Second, owners don’t have to pay these prices and many don’t. Third, the players were demanded to cut their salaries in order to make up for the owners lost revenue. The owners can’t now cry poor because of that lost revenue. That’s double dipping.
    Not sure you want to make the contractual CBA argument.

    To my knowledge CBA does not prevent or restrict owners from cutting labor costs in a pandemic, as they appear to be doing for 2021.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-04-2020 at 02:05 PM.

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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoeless Jeff View Post
    I also can tell you without a doubt that the Reds lost money last year, even after the TV revenue is factored in.
    Does this include revenue from multi-year contracts with ESPN ($5.6B 8-year contract up after last season divided among the clubs), MLB Network ($325M), and TBS ($2.8B over 8 seasons)?

    Does it include revenue from Fox Sports Ohio, which the Reds partially own?

    Does it include radio rights for each of the stations who broadcast the games?

    Does it include all the little side deals with advertisers within games (and on the uniforms)?

    Are they paying themselves a salary? How about their family members?

    Are they charging expenses to the team that belong in personal expenditures, like private airplane travel (for themselves or their families)?

    Have they purchased large ticket items that will be paid back over time by other parties?

    There are a thousand little tricks to hide profit in order to claim nearly whatever you want. If they want us to trust their claims, they'll let us look at the books.

    Otherwise, everything said by ownership (or their employees) is questionable at best.

  10. #291
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    While the Reds have multiple owners, they have a unique power structure, in which there is one “owner’s share” which is worth significantly more than the other shares, and whoever owns that share, is the controlling owner, and has all the power. That is how Marge was able to own the team.

    Cast and the Williams brothers own that “owner’s share” and thus, they have controlling interest in the team, and thus, they and only they, are able to make the final decisions on issues, including financial issues.

    In other words, Cast and the Williams brothers make all the decisions and are not required to answer to the other owners. They are the ones that are deciding how much to spend every year, and them alone. They actually can unilaterally open their checkbooks and unilaterally close them. And this was made evident when they decided to raise payroll around 2010, then slash it in 2016, then raise it again in 2020.
    "Can" is a tricky word. There's a lot of things you can do that are really unwise to do because of the repercussion that come along with it.

    That said, I'd absolutely be willing to stipulate that Castellini in his personal and sole judgment, is not willing to sustain ongoing operating losses in pursuit of a championship. Frankly, I'd be pretty surprised if the Reds were making regular, significant operational profits given how crap both their media contracts and attendance have been historically.

    I know around MLB many owners are making their money outside of walls of the MLB team proper through things like real estate and media deals. Do we have a good read on the extent to which the Castellinis have those sorts of dependent but technically off the books revenue/wealth-building streams?
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-04-2020 at 03:11 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  11. #292
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Does this include revenue from multi-year contracts with ESPN ($5.6B 8-year contract up after last season divided among the clubs), MLB Network ($325M), and TBS ($2.8B over 8 seasons)?

    Does it include revenue from Fox Sports Ohio, which the Reds partially own?

    Does it include radio rights for each of the stations who broadcast the games?

    Does it include all the little side deals with advertisers within games (and on the uniforms)?

    Are they paying themselves a salary? How about their family members?

    Are they charging expenses to the team that belong in personal expenditures, like private airplane travel (for themselves or their families)?

    Have they purchased large ticket items that will be paid back over time by other parties?

    There are a thousand little tricks to hide profit in order to claim nearly whatever you want. If they want us to trust their claims, they'll let us look at the books.

    Otherwise, everything said by ownership (or their employees) is questionable at best.
    The thing is that if you count ALL the extraneous income, you must also count ALL the extraneous expenses. Since you and I and the normal Joe Fan do not sit in the Reds' financial office on a daily basis, we truly have no clue what the operating expenses are.

    I wonder the what actual combined cost of medical insurance on all the players in the organization is? And do premiums go up once a player gets hurt (Tommy John surgery or a knee ligament reconstruction, similar to what Joe Burrow had)? And that does not include insurance for coaches, staff, FO, and all the employees of the club. That has to be a huge chunk of change. And insurance is just one expense we would have no knowledge of.
    “I think I throw the ball as hard as anyone. The ball just doesn't get there as fast.” — Eddie Bane

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  12. #293
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS21 View Post
    The thing is that if you count ALL the extraneous income, you must also count ALL the extraneous expenses. Since you and I and the normal Joe Fan do not sit in the Reds' financial office on a daily basis, we truly have no clue what the operating expenses are.

    I wonder the what actual combined cost of medical insurance on all the players in the organization is? And do premiums go up once a player gets hurt (Tommy John surgery or a knee ligament reconstruction, similar to what Joe Burrow had)? And that does not include insurance for coaches, staff, FO, and all the employees of the club. That has to be a huge chunk of change. And insurance is just one expense we would have no knowledge of.
    No doubt there are extraneous expenses. I suspect those are all being counted-- in some cases, four or five times.

    IIRC, I'm fairly certain most insurance is paid at the MLB office rather than through individual teams. (It's probably been a decade since I read that-- if anyone else knows differently, please educate me.)

    This season, there just weren't that many expenses. No vendors. No foods. A skeleton crew of employees. Not even any minor league system.

    Again, I'd love to have a crack at those books, but there's a reason MLB owners have never shown them.

  13. #294
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    The financials of MLB teams are not public because they are not publicly traded companies. Everyone knows they make a lot of money and are worth a lot of money, so I doubt it would matter if they were or not public.

    There have been some leaks for the curious.

    https://deadspin.com/mlb-confidentia...l-does-5615096

    Businesses are self-sustaining and run at a profit or they die. Bob isn't going to sell his stake in the Reds, then give the money from the sale to the Reds, and help them run at a loss for a while. So the value of his stake in the franchise doesn't really help with operating costs. And anything borrowed to cover losses now has to be paid back later out of future revenue.

    I am not saying they are poor or pitiable. I am not saying they aren't greedy richy-pants. I am saying the Reds as a bussines has to work with the capital, assets, and revenue it has to operate. It's not magic, it's basic math.
    Last edited by CaiGuy; 12-04-2020 at 05:21 PM.

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  15. #295
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by CaiGuy View Post
    The financials of MLB teams are not public because they are not publicly traded companies. Everyone knows they make a lot of money and are worth a lot of money, so I doubt it would matter if they were or not public.

    There have been some leaks for the curious.

    https://deadspin.com/mlb-confidentia...l-does-5615096

    Businesses are self-sustaining and run at a profit or they die. Bob isn't going to sell his stake in the Reds, then give the money from the sale to the Reds, and help them run at a loss for a while. So the value of his stake in the franchise doesn't really help with operating costs. And anything borrowed to cover losses now has to be paid back later out of future revenue.

    I am not saying they are poor or pitiable. I am not saying they aren't greedy richy-pants. I am saying the Reds as a bussines has to work with the capital, assets, and revenue it has to operate. It's not magic, it's basic math.
    From the article in question:

    If there is a thread running through all of these financial statements, it is the incredible ability of baseball teams — whether they're winners or losers, big market or small, "rich" or "poor" — to make their owners a fat pile of money.

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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    ^We all know that they are multi-billion dollar businesses that make a lot of money. I posted the article because it was interesting, not to make a point that they don't make money.

    I am just saying it's a pipe dream and kinda silly to expect the Reds to run the franchise at an operational loss, because "they can if they want."

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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    The 2009 Angel's documents are interesting, because they are probably pretty close to where the Reds are 10+ years later numbers-wise.

    https://www.scribd.com/embeds/685226...oi8exmmc3oo654

  18. #298
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by CaiGuy View Post
    Businesses are self-sustaining and run at a profit or they die.
    How much longer do I have to wait for Uber and Lyft to die?

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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    No doubt there are extraneous expenses. I suspect those are all being counted-- in some cases, four or five times.
    "Extraneous" expenses???

    You don't think MLB teams have huge fixed costs including debt payments just like every other major business? Their revenue stream was not only cut by losing 60% of their normal games, those games that were played lost ticket sales and other normal in game revenue like food, parking, etc. So they saved on player salaries and travel costs and laying off staff. I'm sure that didn't cover their lost revenue. No way they had profit 2020 after covering their remaining fixed costs.

  21. #300
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    Re: Non-tender situation and moves for 2020-21

    Quote Originally Posted by UPRedsFan View Post
    No way they had profit 2020 after covering their remaining fixed costs.
    And if they let experts look at those books to show it, I might believe it.

    But, again, they're not showing those books for a reason.

    And the only reason that makes sense is that they're lying about the cash.


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