Turn Off Ads?
Page 9 of 12 FirstFirst ... 56789101112 LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 174

Thread: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

  1. #121
    I rig polls REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    29,254

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    It’s not debatable. Seriously, you’re wrong on this one. It’s ok to be wrong. I am wrong all the time.

    The main reason they wanted to dump Bauer was his salary, the second reason was to improve their offense and add an OF.
    They wanted to trade Bauer for less expensive players with more control.. yes, I agree with you on that.
    But it was kind of a situation like Lindor the last few years, if they did not get an offer they liked, they did not
    have to deal him that week. In other words, they had some flexibility, it was not like the 2003 Reds who were
    dumping everyone they could, regardless of return.

    Reyes was their big bat that could immediately contribute and hang around for a long time.
    Sure, Puig was helpful, but if the Reds were not willing to put Puig in the deal, I am sure the Indians would have taken
    someone else. The Indians were not "all in" that year.

    In other words, the priority was to get long term cheap controllable help, not a one year rental in the OF.
    [Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!


  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #122
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    20,069

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    The Indians never go “all in”

    They are too smart for that. However, they were in the midst of a pennant run and desperately needed an OF bat (Puig). They did not need Bauer, who was having a so-so year and was a clubhouse cancer at the time (days before he threw the ball over the CF wall and Francona was very upset). Puig was definitely a target for the Indians. It’s why the reds matched up well in the 3 team trade.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

  4. #123
    I rig polls REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    29,254

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    It's not debatable. They traded for him and hit him cleanup for the rest of the season. They wanted that dude. Maybe they like Reyes over the long haul, but they hit him primarily in the #6 slot. Yet they definitely thought Puig was the better guy last season.
    So the Indians were willing to give up roughly 1 1/3 seasons of Bauer for the primary reason of getting 1/3 season of Puig? Is
    that what you are trying to say? IMO, Puig represented less than 5% of the value the Indians perceived they got. If they
    didn't get Puig, they would trade a C prospect for another OF.

    Here's what Cleveland's GM said about the trade:
    Reyes’ 27 home runs, 46 RBIs and .849 OPS were quite attractive to the Cleveland front office. However, the fact that the 24-year-old is under team control until after the 2024 season was an enormous draw.
    “It was a really important part,” Antonetti said. “I think one of the things that we were seeking to do with this is get guys that, again, could help us this year, but also help as we plan building our team beyond this year.”
    With Bauer having just one year left before becoming a free agent – a year in which he’s projected to make upwards of $20 million --- swapping the hurler’s contract for a bat that can be controlled for five years to come could be a big victory for the club.
    The article also said Puig was a rental, the Indians were hoping to get the best 2 months of his career since he was a pending FA. But notice the emphasis on getting young players.. https://www.mlb.com/news/indians-tra...ine-recap-2019

    This will probably be the last I will comment on this. If you want to believe Puig was the key piece in the deal, despite what is posted above, I'm not sure what to tell you.
    I even agree with your original premise that the 2 kids they traded for Puig will not set the team back forever, they aren't likely
    to be superstars, etc.. But there's no need to pretend that Puig was great addition because he's responsible for getting Bauer.
    That's just not the case. As I said, there's a possibility that the Reds insisted the Indians or Padres take Puig to balance out the salary for taking on Bauer. The Indians may not have even wanted him. Of course, the Indians are going to spin it like "oh we just got a big bat for the stretch run".. they want to sell the fans that the team is trying to win.

    Reality? The Indians would probably have preferred to take another Scott Moss type prospect instead of Puig.
    [Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  5. Likes:

    JFLegal (12-02-2020)

  6. #124
    I rig polls REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    29,254

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Franmil Reyes is a colossus that strides the universe and not a palooka who's delivered a 0.2 WAR for the Indians over 120 games. That's why the Indians hit him #6 while they hit Puig cleanup, because #6 is where you put your best hitter.
    And the mighty Puig put up a 0.4 WAR for the Indians..
    [Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  7. #125
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4,067

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Didn't see it. Thanks for re-posting. We've got the same list. So if the Reds can get Lindor or Story for not those guys, I assume we're on the same page, right? My general assumption is every organization is going to be tight with their top prospects, especially for a higher-priced one-year guy.

    Quick note about small market teams: there's only about 8 of them (Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Kansas City, San Diego, Oakland and Tampa Bay - and those last two markets aren't really small). Until the Royals won the 2015 World Series, the Reds had been the most recent WS winner from that group. So what works for small markets is largely a mystery. Seems like the actual answer is either nothing or a radical departure from perceived norms.
    yes, we are in agreement on the prospects.

  8. #126
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4,067

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    can we stop pretending the 2019 indians were actually in any type of legit pennant race? they knew they had a chance at making the wildcard, but that's it. and even when he's having a down year for his standards, you definitely do not trade trevor bauer at the deadline if you believe you are truly in a pennant race. the indians were looking ahead to the future and coveted reyes and one of the pitchers from the padres.

  9. #127
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    45,548

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    And the mighty Puig put up a 0.4 WAR for the Indians..
    So, double what Reyes has done in less than half the time.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  10. #128
    rest in power, king Wonderful Monds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    11,440

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    I would be inclined to agree with the notion that Puig was a throw in more than a principle in that Indians deal. If I’m not mistaken, he wasn’t even included in the initial reporting of the deal.

    But Bauer was a better player than Puig over the last few years. He was still an above average starter last year even with his decline, until he came over here. He also had a year and a half or so of control compared to the couple months Puig had. Puig also made a good chunk of change last year and the Indians are cheap as hell. I would say Reyes was the clear primary target for them out of that whole deal.

  11. Likes:

    JFLegal (12-01-2020)

  12. #129
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Venice
    Posts
    33,146

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    This debate comes down to one question:

    Could the Bauer trade have happened without Puig. I think the answer is clearly yes. Puig isn’t very good, he had a .777 OPS and a .302 OBP at the time of the trade. Philip Ervin was out performing Puig at the time.
    More importantly, the Reds easily could have gotten a player as productive as Puig without giving up two top ten prospects. Outfielders who OPS below .800 are usually cheap pickups off the waiver wire. They don’t make the Bailey trade, they likely pick up a Puig type player for next to nothing.

    That said, it is possible the Indians had their heart set on Puig, but if true, that really says more about the Indians than Puig or the trade.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

  13. Likes:

    JFLegal (12-01-2020)

  14. #130
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4,067

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    This debate comes down to one question:

    Could the Bauer trade have happened without Puig. I think the answer is clearly yes. Puig isn’t very good, he had a .777 OPS and a .302 OBP at the time of the trade. Philip Ervin was out performing Puig at the time.
    More importantly, the Reds easily could have gotten a player as productive as Puig without giving up two top ten prospects. Outfielders who OPS below .800 are usually cheap pickups off the waiver wire. They don’t make the Bailey trade, they likely pick up a Puig type player for next to nothing.

    That said, it is possible the Indians had their heart set on Puig, but if true, that really says more about the Indians than Puig or the trade.
    exactly. there is no question, IMO, that the indians knew they were out of it (as far as winning a world series) and wanted to build for the future, without completley throwing in the towel for 2019. the two main guys in that trade from the indians' standpoint were reyes and one of the pitchers from the padres (name escaping me). puig was a throw-in so they could half-arse "contend" for the remainder of the season. but their decision in trading bauer was 100% about building for the future.

    reyes, who clubbed 37 homers at the age of 24, was the centerpiece of the deal for the tribe.

  15. #131
    Member mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    31,861

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    I think what is being overlooked in this whole Bauer discussion is the Indians ability to judge pitchers. Bauer was expensive, had an attitude issue and was having a bad year. The Indians just wanted rid of him IMO. They were right also. He was the worst picther in the majors in 2019 after the trade. He was great this year, but in 2019, he was horrible. The Indians were much improved by being rid of him. IMO, that was the primary return in the deal for them. The Indians are right a lot about pitchers. They were right about Kluber as well and didn't seem to have any problems with their rotation after those gys were gone.

    Puig, Reyes, etc, all just icing on the cake IMO. Moving Bauer was the prime motivator. It was a matter of getting the best deal out there. Once the Reds included Trammell, it unlocked several prospects from SD so that was the deal they went with. Puig was along for the ride and as money balast to allow the Reds to take on Bauer.
    Last edited by mth123; 12-01-2020 at 08:54 PM.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

  16. #132
    Member Mitri's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,067

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think what is being overlooked in this whole Bauer discussion is the Indians ability to judge pitchers. Bauer was expensive, had an attitude issue and was having a bad year. The Indians just wanted rid of him IMO. They were right also. He was the worst picther in the majors in 2019 after the trade. He was great this year, but in 2019, he was horrible. The Indians were much improved by being rid of him. IMO, that was the primary return in the deal for them. The Indians are right a lot about pitchers. They were right about Kluber as well and didn't seem to have any problems with their rotation after those gys were gone.

    Puig, Reyes, etc, all just icing on the cake IMO. Moving Bauer was the prime motivator. It was a matter of getting the best deal out there. Once the Reds included Trammell, it unlocked several prospects from SD so that was the deal they went with. Puig was along for the ride and as money balast to allow the Reds to take on Bauer.
    Bauer won a Cy Young in what would have been their last year of control. I know it ended up not really mattering but they gave up on that for Franmil Reyes and Puig. Not sure how that makes them geniuses.

  17. Likes:

    JFLegal (12-02-2020),M2 (12-01-2020),Old school 1983 (12-02-2020),Tom Servo (12-01-2020),Wonderful Monds (12-01-2020)

  18. #133
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    45,548

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    So the Indians were willing to give up roughly 1 1/3 seasons of Bauer for the primary reason of getting 1/3 season of Puig? Is
    that what you are trying to say? IMO, Puig represented less than 5% of the value the Indians perceived they got. If they
    didn't get Puig, they would trade a C prospect for another OF.
    Sorry, but 5% doesn't bat cleanup. The Indians knew the clock was winding down on the their Lindor-Ramirez window. I'm sure getting a long-term piece was important to them (visions of Andre Thornton dancing in their heads), but they obviously thought Puig could play a role in taking another shot at October.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  19. Likes:

    Old school 1983 (12-02-2020)

  20. #134
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4,067

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    lmao @ batting cleanup, as if that is any sort of trump card.

    puig was a throw-in. francona batting him cleanup for a couple months on an extremely bad offensive club does not change that fact.

  21. #135
    Member mth123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    31,861

    Re: Morosi: Reds prioritizing the addition of a shortstop

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitri View Post
    Bauer won a Cy Young in what would have been their last year of control. I know it ended up not really mattering but they gave up on that for Franmil Reyes and Puig. Not sure how that makes them geniuses.
    They ended up winning 93 games in 2019. Avoiding his 6+ ERA over the last two months had a lot to do with that.

    They also got Logan Allen who looks like another solid young cheap pitcher for the pipeline, a young position player lotto ticket who had an .871 OPS in rookie ball when they made the trade, and Scott Moss who has done fairly well in 26 AA and AAA starts. Moving a picther about to blow-up and not having to pay his salary, along with acquiring Allen were the keys to the deal for Cleveland IMO. Avoiding that blow-up was a bigger factor in them ending up with 93 wins than anything Puig or Reyes did. They wanted OF help and took Puig and Reyes, but those guys were only part of the package.

    As for Bauer, his time in 2019 with the Reds where he was horrible was only one less start than his time in 2020 where he was great. Overall the Reds got 21 starts from him with a 3.76 ERA and a 3.73 FIP in 129 innings. About what Bauer has been his whole career. They paid about $21+ million for that and Cleveland didn't. Don't under-estimate that part of the return in the deal.

    I thought he was great in 2020, but I don't believe that under 2 ERA would have held up over a full season. I'm guessing over a full year, he'd have made another 21 starts and his stats would have probably ended up about in that 3.75 range, maybe lower since he was off to such a good start, but probably not under 3.00. He's a good pitcher. For 11 starts he was the best pitcher in the NL and the primary reason the Reds squeeked into the expanded play-offs and there are no regrets form the Reds side on the deal, but it worked out for the Indians as well.

    On a one year deal, I'd sign him for something like $25 to $30 Million, but on a longer term deal, I probably wouldn't go more than $20 Million per year. Some team will pay him to be a Cy Young and will likely get a good, reliable pitcher with a 3.75 ERA. That's pretty good, but I'm not sure I'd go long term at the kind of money he is going to be offered.
    Last edited by mth123; 12-02-2020 at 07:03 AM.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

  22. Likes:

    JFLegal (12-02-2020)


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator