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Thread: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

  1. #31
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    I disagree with the notion that churning the roster is necessarily a good thing. Depends on the kind of deal.

    Signing a vet like Sonny Gray for multiple years and trading him for a haul mid-way through makes sense. That’s a good format, assuming the timing and return are right.

    Trading good kids for one-year veterans does not make sense for Reds, except in compelling circumstances. I’m against that kind of churning on a regular basis.

    Currently, if Reds are exploring getting younger, faster, better defensively, with all-around, controllable players, I’m all for it.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-05-2020 at 11:33 AM.

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    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    With a pitcher as good as Sonny at the price he's at, it would require an overpay of legendary proportions to get him. Like, are they getting the modern equivalent of Joe Morgan, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo, Ed Armbrister and Dennis Menke?
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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  6. #33
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    With a pitcher as good as Sonny at the price he's at, it would require an overpay of legendary proportions to get him. Like, are they getting the modern equivalent of Joe Morgan, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo, Ed Armbrister and Dennis Menke?
    How about Yasmani Grandal, Yonder Alonso, Brad Boxberger and Edinson Volquez? That was consider a huge overpay at the time.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

  7. #34
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    With a pitcher as good as Sonny at the price he's at, it would require an overpay of legendary proportions to get him. Like, are they getting the modern equivalent of Joe Morgan, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo, Ed Armbrister and Dennis Menke?
    It'd take a Bo Bichette, Royce Lewis, CJ Abrams type centerpiece for me to even consider dealing Gray, and I just don't think teams are willing to give up prospects in that range.

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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    How about Yasmani Grandal, Yonder Alonso, Brad Boxberger and Edinson Volquez? That was consider a huge overpay at the time.
    It wasn't by me. Thought the Reds got a steal. Won the total WAR accounting on that trade 7.8 to 7.3, and that 7.3 got divided by four guys over a longer stretch of time (peak WAR is more valuable). The Padres made that deal and spent eight more years in the weeds. San Diego botched that trade. We should weep if Gray goes out the door for something that paltry.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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  11. #36
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    It wasn't by me. Thought the Reds got a steal. Won the total WAR accounting on that trade 7.8 to 7.3, and that 7.3 got divided by four guys over a longer stretch of time (peak WAR is more valuable). The Padres made that deal and spent eight more years in the weeds. San Diego botched that trade. We should weep if Gray goes out the door for something that paltry.
    That was my point. At the time, most reporters called this a huge overpay, but it ended up being a fair trade, maybe a slight advantage to the Reds. It’s the problem with trading for prospects, even many top ones. They are all high risk.
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  12. #37
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    That was my point. At the time, most reporters called this a huge overpay, but it ended up being a fair trade, maybe a slight advantage to the Reds. It’s the problem with trading for prospects, even many top ones. They are all high risk.
    I'm not sure I agree that most reporters thought that was a huge overpay at the time.

    The problem with trading Gray now is that it doesn't lineup with having Moustakas and Castellanos in their peak performing years before their inevitable decline (especially Moustakas). I agree the best small market franchises are always churning, but losing Bauer and Gray during this particular window seems...difficult to overcome. If they're somehow able to get multiple super productive rookies or second year players out of the deal, maybe it works. But I'm not holding my breath...
    Go BLUE!!!

  13. #38
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    It’s hard to see a big trade working out.

    Bigger markets will look for a heist. They’ll view Reds as weak sister desperate to shed salary.

    Smaller markets themselves cost cutting won’t want to take on salary. And they will hold their top young players very close.

    Would seem more fruitful for Reds to go after free agents having trouble getting the big LTC.

    But can’t really tell, sometimes the reality of the market is different than the expectation.

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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    At the end of the day I will be shocked if Gray is not opening day starter for the reds this coming season.

    Again, Sherman is a hack.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by Benihana View Post
    I'm not sure I agree that most reporters thought that was a huge overpay at the time.
    I specifically remember many articles about how much of an overpay this was.

    It was two recent high first round draft picks plus others for a guy with reputation of being a hot head (which ending up being true). Alonso and Grandal had major trade value at the time, ranked #33 and #53 on BA’s prospect list. We now know only Grandal became productive at the MLB level and it was years later, but at the time of the trade, they were top prospects.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    It'd take a Bo Bichette, Royce Lewis, CJ Abrams type centerpiece for me to even consider dealing Gray, and I just don't think teams are willing to give up prospects in that range.
    Sonny Gray for Zack Davies and CJ Abrams. If anyone can (because he's crazy) and would (because he has the talent to spare) make a trade for Gray, it's Preller.

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  20. #42
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    At the end of the day I will be shocked if Gray is not opening day starter for the reds this coming season.

    .
    Agree.

    It makes sense for the Reds to trade a veteran contract. But the most logical choice would be one of the hitters. Reds have too many one-dimensional power hitters. That’s the area of depth.

    Trading Gray - after likely losing Bauer - would seem an odd choice. Unless Gray is the only candidate who can bring back what Reds want. Even then, you need good starting pitching.

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  22. #43
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    That was my point. At the time, most reporters called this a huge overpay, but it ended up being a fair trade, maybe a slight advantage to the Reds. It’s the problem with trading for prospects, even many top ones. They are all high risk.
    I can't account for other people's tastes. Though I do seem to remember the Reds becoming a hip pick to contend on the heels of that trade, so somebody liked it.

    And that deal was more than a slight advantage to the Reds. The Padres got an OK catcher (Grandal was much better in his later stops), a bad 1B and negative pitching performance.

    Though totally agreed on these usually being high risk deals for the team receiving the magic beans, which is why the deal it would take to get me to part with a frontline pitcher on a fantastic contract probably doesn't exist.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  23. #44
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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    “I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”

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    Re: Sherman: Reds are “working hard” to trade right-hander Sonny Gray

    If they really are “working hard to trade him” you know the hypothetical return would be garbage. Teams aren’t going to start offering up huge packages when they know The Reds are desperate.

    If this happens, it’s going to be a blatant salary dump. It will be about the final nail in the coffin of my patience for this franchise / ownership group.

    Castellini is quickly becoming worse than Carl Lindner in my mind. Carl never made any bones about being cheap, we knew what we were getting. Castellini, on the other hand, wants to pretend like he’s a small market George Steinbrenner and blow smoke up our backsides every chance he gets.

    I hate being a fan of Cincinnati sports teams.
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