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Thread: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

  1. #151
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I don’t know how to find this data, but is there a way to look up BABIP on line drives and compare them for left handed hitters and right handed hitters in 2020? That short RF shift was something that really put the nails on LHH this year and really convinced me something needed to be done about it. I just don’t think hitters should be penalized that much for hitting the ball well as much as that type of shift does.
    It can be done using Fangraphs split tool. IF I can, will look into it or maybe someone else can.

    May require including ground balls to see the difference between LHH and RHH. Generally BABIP on line drives is quite high.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-31-2020 at 10:24 PM.


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  3. #152
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Francona’s comment is dependent on the specifics of the rule. Two defenders on each side of second still allows shading toward the pull side. No reason why opposite field hitting should stop with that type of rule.

    But more to the point, I don’t expect most managers to want this rule change. The managers are the ones employing the shift. It may hurt certain of their hitters, but it’s been a big benefit to their pitching staffs.

    The rule change is not for the managers. It’s for the fans.
    I think a lot of teams will have a problem with changing. Most of baseball has gone to the big corner guy who can hit playing second base. Those teams will have the same problem the Reds will if that big slow guy is left there to cover second base in the traditional way without the extra infielder helping him out against left handed hitters. The REds problem is worse because that extra fielder not only helps the second baseman but also the Right Fielder on short fly balls and the Reds don't have a player in either position who can cover the position properly. Without that extra fielder, a lot of teams are going to be exposed, but the Reds moreso than most.

    I think the shift was taken into consideration as a way to hide the defensive issues when the Reds signed those guys and if it's eliminated, I don't think the Reds can go into the season with those guys in those two positions.
    Last edited by mth123; 12-31-2020 at 09:29 PM.
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  4. #153
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    What everyone is ignoring, including the post from membengal, is that teams have been shifting for decades. They did it against Ted Williams before most of is were born. Teams have always been looking at spray charts, tracking where hitters hit the ball, and then adjusting their defense according to this data. Shifting defenders out of position has always been a part of the game.
    And I don't think anyone is disputing this point. It existed at some degree or level, but other then Wiliams, it was still not a common practice around the league. There were plenty of elite pull hitters "back then" who drew their success/power in the same manner as Williams. Was it consistently used against them too? It was a manager who devised the strategy, yet it didn't seem to catch on. So yes, it existed, but not to the degree (frequency) we're seeing in today's game.

    So IMO, it's an issue of infrequency, not a commonly accepted practice, thus providing little annoyance VS increased frequency, more common practice, and becoming a pain in the *** for players and fans. lol

    I don't know if this has been posted, but maybe those (including me) who are making a fuss over this extreme shift ("we just don't like it!") are possibly over-reacting? Because at least according to the data collected so far, hitters are overcoming the shift on their own ...

    LA continues to increase, GB rates dropping, players are learning to put the ball in the air, hit it over the INF, especially when the shift is on. And that kind of brings me back to what Williams said concerning the shift .... He wasn't going to yield his power, try to hit to the opposite field, nor alter the swing he took years to hone.

    Hit it over them.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-on-their-own/
    Last edited by GAC; 01-01-2021 at 07:24 AM.
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  5. #154
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    I covered it. Hitting OVER it has put the premium on power over all other skill sets and arguably accelerated the drift toward three true outcomes heavy games. That is the crux of my complaint - it has fundamentally altered the way the game is played and , in my view, not for the better.
    Well, that's what those words mean. He was here. If they don't keep him, he will have been lost/subtracted. I headed out the door today with two shoes on my feet. If I don't return with them, I have lost them. If I do return with them, I haven't added them. ---M2

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  7. #155
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    As someone who is very much in touch with youth baseball, ages 13-18, I can tell you it's all about launch angle and putting the ball in the air for kids. And it has to do with power to the outfield. They have no thoughts whatsoever about shifts or shifting. Weightlifting and launch angle. If you want the game to look like it used to, you'd be better off banning weightlifting than the shifts.

  8. #156
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post



    I don't know if this has been posted, but maybe those (including me) who are making a fuss over this extreme shift ("we just don't like it!") are possibly over-reacting? Because at least according to the data collected so far, hitters are overcoming the shift on their own ...


    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-on-their-own/
    Let’s keep in mind that there are two separate questions.

    Is the launch angle approach overcoming the shift in terms of run scoring? Probably yes.

    Is the game, with this change, as exciting and action-packed for fans to enjoy? Many (myself included) say no.

    This is more about the aesthetics of the game, how enjoyable it is to watch, rather than whether teams are still scoring runs.

    And just to be clear - the lack of action is not entirely caused by the shift. It’s also caused by advanced pitching techniques increasing strikeouts.
    Last edited by Kc61; 01-01-2021 at 09:53 AM.

  9. #157
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    So, since 2000 the K% per PA in MLB has increased from 16.5 to 23.4%. The biggest leap in the last ten years, from 18.5% to 23.4%. Think about that - today, almost 1/4 of all PAs end in a strikeout.

    Simultaneously, since 2000, batting average has declined from .270 to .245. From 2015 to today, the extreme shift era, it’s declined from .254 to .245. Again - consider that league-wide BA is now below .250.

    BA is a limited stat - but it does tell us how often batters are hitting successfully, which is a big part of the game’s appeal to the viewing audience. And while BB% is up (base hit infrequent, wait the pitcher out), I’m not sure that compensates for the lack of action.
    Last edited by Kc61; 01-01-2021 at 10:51 AM.

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  11. #158
    Playoffs ?? !! goreds2's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Any update on this besides DH and expanded playoffs?
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  12. #159
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by goreds2 View Post
    Any update on this besides DH and expanded playoffs?
    I think the players union has nixed both for 2021. So neither is likely to happen at this point.
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  13. #160
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    MLB testing new rules in minors: Big bases, shift bans, robot umps and more
    In Double-A, a new rule will require that four infielders be positioned on the infield dirt (or on the infield grass) at all times, effectively eliminating the increasingly common extreme shifts that see three infielders on one side of second base, with one of those usually playing in the shallow outfield, playing the percentages that the hitter will line out or ground out to that spot in the outfield and taking away would-be base hits. The league also suggested the possibility that the second half of the season will require two infielders to be on either side of second base, which would effectively ban shifts altogether.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-testing...215444388.html

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  15. #161
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Madden View Post
    MLB testing new rules in minors: Big bases, shift bans, robot umps and more

    https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-testing...215444388.html
    Ah, an anti-shift trial in the minor leagues. Like it.

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  17. #162
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    It’s not so simple to just go the other way when every pitcher can bust you in on the hands with high 90s heat. An adjustment to the shift is needed, otherwise we’re just going to sink deeper into three true outcomes ball.
    How about they ban "busting you in on the hands with high 90s heat" then?
    Huh? Huh-uh. Oh yeah, uh-huh.

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  19. #163
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by George Foster View Post
    I'm in favor of making defenders play their positions. 2 player's in-between 3rd and 2nd. 2 player's in-between 2nd and 1st.
    Go take a look at the MLB rules and then tell me about defenders playing their "positions". OK, I'll save you the work: the only positions defined are pitcher and catcher.
    Huh? Huh-uh. Oh yeah, uh-huh.

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  21. #164
    Playoffs ?? !! goreds2's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    I think we know where Votto stands on this topic.
    * Attended the 1990 and 2010 Reds Division clinchers *

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  22. #165
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    The change I expect to see is in 10-20 years when left-handed hitters are basically nonexistent.


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