Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

[WrongVerb]

I'm against this silliness.

[757690]

It's not a coaching thing. As long as more runs are being scored this way, they'll keep hitting that way. It isn't the coaches or players responsibility to adjust the game for entertainment value, it's the owners. The players are there to try to win.

Banning the shift will only create a new set of problems, imo. It’s an overly simplistic approach to a more complex problem. Teams will find ways to cheat or exploit the rules and the game will become even more unwatchable.

If what you say is true, then raise the mound, deaden the ball, raise OF walls, do something that forces hitters to stop swinging from their heels. That is the central problem, imo, not the shift.

[HammerTime]

Do it, it's ruining the game. If it was easy to hit the ball the other way like everyone suggests, everyone would do it.

[Old school 1983]

Banning the shift will only create a new set of problems, imo. It’s an overly simplistic approach to a more complex problem. Teams will find ways to cheat or exploit the rules and the game will become even more unwatchable.

If what you say is true, then raise the mound, deaden the ball, raise OF walls, do something that forces hitters to stop swinging from their heels. That is the central problem, imo, not the shift.

I would be for deadening the ball. I’d also be for any new stadiums being required to have certain minimal dimensions and certain minimal square footage on fouls territory on the field. Guys are throwing harder than ever. Mound can stay where it is. I get that things change but I feel like analytics have dumbed down the watching experience of sports. NBA, NFL and MLB all seemed like dumbed down watered down versions of their former selves.

[757690]

Do it, it's ruining the game. If it was easy to hit the ball the other way like everyone suggests, everyone would do it.

It was easy to do for over a century. It was coached from the beginning. That isn’t the case anymore. If hitters learn to hit the other way from HS on, they’d be able to do it in the majors. It’s the same thing with bunting. It’s never coached anymore, so no one can do it.

[mth123]

I'm completely against this. Positioning of fielders should be purely a matter of strategy. If they want to line them all up down the right field line, that should be the team's prerogative. 9 players on the field, one to pitch. That should be the extent of the prescription. Let the rest of the structure/strategy develop from the goals of the game itself, not from some enlightened ideas of entertainment moguls.

I agree completely. Another matter for the Reds, without an extra fielder in Short RF, there is no way a right side of Votto, Moose and Castellanos is going to be acceptable. If I was Gray and Castillo I'd be praying for a trade elsewhere. Without a serious restructuring, it's going to be ugly.

[RedsManRick]

I used to be against a ban on the shift because it felt like more like an "old man yells at cloud" reaction than anything else. It just didn't seem like it was fixing a real problem, just removing an element of strategy because the new thing made conservatives feel uncomfortable.

I've come around on it on one basic premise - as a matter of physics, it is easier to pull the ball with power than going the opposite way. With 1B being on the lefty pull side, the deep hole between 1B & 2B is a viable place to field a ball and still get a runner out at 1B. This creates a shift opportunity against lefties that doesn't really exist against righties. I'd just rather not have the game penalize a segment of hitters by dint of their handedness.

If fielders want to move after the pitch, go for it. And if a team wants to shift their OF and leave most of LF completely untended, fine. But mandate that 2 IF must start on each side of 2B and my not cross over until after contact.

And while this is less of the issue, I'd also just like to see the argument taken of the table. The major issue with the game is the widespread increase in pitcher ability that has shifted the equilibrium of batter/pitcher strategy drastically toward TTO. Some combination of shrinking the zone, adjusting the mound, pushing back fences, deadening the ball would do a lot more for the game's aesthetics.

[Redsfaithful]

It was easy to do for over a century. It was coached from the beginning. That isn’t the case anymore. If hitters learn to hit the other way from HS on, they’d be able to do it in the majors. It’s the same thing with bunting. It’s never coached anymore, so no one can do it.

Pitchers actually throw a lot harder now and also aren't kept in games as they fatigue, until someone who is pro-shift wants to engage with those facts I don't see any point in taking the "hit oppo!" or "unintended consequences!" takes seriously.

There's a handful of things absolutely killing baseball's watchability right now, and while I have no illusion this group of owners will be able to come up with solutions this would definitely be a good move.

On a side note, I think it actually bothers me that the shift is so data driven. No team would have been able to shift like this before computerization of the sport. The human element is what is interesting about sports. I want to see human beings doing amazing things. It's boring seeing a 2b throwing out a runner from shallow right field because of tendencies human scouting never would have been able to make +ev in such a definitive way.

[mth123]

I used to be against a ban on the shift because it felt like more like an "old man yells at cloud" reaction than anything else. It just didn't seem like it was fixing a real problem, just removing an element of strategy because the new thing made conservatives feel uncomfortable.

I've come around on it on one basic premise - as a matter of physics, it is easier to pull the ball with power than going the opposite way. With 1B being on the lefty pull side, the deep hole between 1B & 2B is a viable place to field a ball and still get a runner out at 1B. This creates a shift opportunity against lefties that doesn't really exist against righties. I'd just rather not have the game penalize a segment of hitters by dint of their handedness.

If fielders want to move after the pitch, go for it. And if a team wants to shift their OF and leave most of LF completely untended, fine. But mandate that 2 IF must start on each side of 2B and my not cross over until after contact.

And while this is less of the issue, I'd also just like to see the argument taken of the table. The major issue with the game is the widespread increase in pitcher ability that has shifted the equilibrium of batter/pitcher strategy drastically toward TTO. Some combination of shrinking the zone, adjusting the mound, pushing back fences, deadening the ball would do a lot more for the game's aesthetics.

Your last paragraph is the real problem. The answer, IMO, is banning pine tar and enforcing it. This change away from offense coincides with that to help get a grip being accepted.

[Norm Chortleton]

I've come around on it on one basic premise - as a matter of physics, it is easier to pull the ball with power than going the opposite way. With 1B being on the lefty pull side, the deep hole between 1B & 2B is a viable place to field a ball and still get a runner out at 1B. This creates a shift opportunity against lefties that doesn't really exist against righties. I'd just rather not have the game penalize a segment of hitters by dint of their handedness.

I was a dead-pull LH hitter, and I'm 100% against banning any shift.

RH hitters have been penalized for as long as baseball has been played. They:

--have an extra step or 2 to reach first base
--don't have the hole open when a runner is being held at first
--face same-handed pitchers waaay more often than LH hitters

Probably a few more I'm forgetting

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[NachoMan]

This is a good idea and would benefit the Reds a lot: http://redscontentplus.com/2020/08/w...-reds-offense/

I used to be in the "hitters need to adjust" camp, but that new short-right shift was almost game-breaking last year.

[Old school 1983]

Your last paragraph is the real problem. The answer, IMO, is banning pine tar and enforcing it. This change away from offense coincides with that to help get a grip being accepted.

I agree. Maybe it’s the advent of HD tv. But it seems like pitchers don’t even try to hide it anymore.

[Wonderful Monds]

Pitchers actually throw a lot harder now and also aren't kept in games as they fatigue, until someone who is pro-shift wants to engage with those facts I don't see any point in taking the "hit oppo!" or "unintended consequences!" takes seriously.

There's a handful of things absolutely killing baseball's watchability right now, and while I have no illusion this group of owners will be able to come up with solutions this would definitely be a good move.

On a side note, I think it actually bothers me that the shift is so data driven. No team would have been able to shift like this before computerization of the sport. The human element is what is interesting about sports. I want to see human beings doing amazing things. It's boring seeing a 2b throwing out a runner from shallow right field because of tendencies human scouting never would have been able to make +ev in such a definitive way.

That’s a big part of what I hate about modern pro sports. The way MLB and NBA are played now are all based on non baseball people just crunching data in a computer to find the most efficient way to play the game. As it turns out, the most efficient way to play baseball is also pretty damn boring.

If this had just been the natural evolution of baseball because of the way players figured out how to play the game, that’d be one thing. But it’s not.

As an aside, who would’ve guessed the Moneyballing of baseball would’ve actually led to its decline say, 10-15 years ago?

[RollyInRaleigh]

The shifts have decimated the great defensive infield play that we once saw, particularly the range that we once saw in the middle infield. I would be happy to see them ban the major shifts. Athletes are more athletic today than ever. It would be great fun to watch again.


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[savafan]

It was easy to do for over a century. It was coached from the beginning. That isn’t the case anymore. If hitters learn to hit the other way from HS on, they’d be able to do it in the majors. It’s the same thing with bunting. It’s never coached anymore, so no one can do it.

When I was growing up playing, nearly everyone I knew could hit the ball the other way based on how the defense was playing in the field. I sucked at it, but everyone else seemed able to do it.