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Thread: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

  1. #46
    Member bm1475's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I would be for deadening the ball. I’d also be for any new stadiums being required to have certain minimal dimensions and certain minimal square footage on fouls territory on the field. Guys are throwing harder than ever. Mound can stay where it is. I get that things change but I feel like analytics have dumbed down the watching experience of sports. NBA, NFL and MLB all seemed like dumbed down watered down versions of their former selves.
    I agree. I used to be the biggest NFL fan there was, but most of my offseason football consumption was watching mid- and late-1990s highlights on YouTube, and Monday's Bengals game was the first one all season where I watched more than five minutes of the game.

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  4. #47
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by bm1475 View Post
    and Monday's Bengals game was the first one all season where I watched more than five minutes of the game.
    So that’s why they won!!
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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  6. #48
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    I propose zones with movement restrictions placed on players

    To make it interesting I place a electronic device in the sole of each players foot, if they don't follow protocol they get a shock that drops them to the ground

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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    It was easy to do for over a century. It was coached from the beginning. That isn’t the case anymore. If hitters learn to hit the other way from HS on, they’d be able to do it in the majors. It’s the same thing with bunting. It’s never coached anymore, so no one can do it.
    Every team didn’t have 8 guys throwing 98 back then.

  9. #50
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I propose zones with movement restrictions placed on players

    To make it interesting I place a electronic device in the sole of each players foot, if they don't follow protocol they get a shock that drops them to the ground
    "Don't tase me, bro!"

    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

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  11. #51
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    We see something similar all the time. The SS or 2B stays close to the bag to keep a runner on second close, then sprints to a different position as soon as the pitcher starts to pitch. Granted, they don’t go as far as a shift, but if a SS is right at the line, they can move pretty far across it when the pitcher pitches.

    Though maybe this still achieves what the rule wants, in that extreme shifts would stop.
    If the rule is that you can't shift before the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, they won't have time. That's well under a half second to process when the ball leaves and to start moving.

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  13. #52
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    I suspect the ultimate answer to beating the shift is the hitters will render it useless. I'm also a little dubious about how successful a ban will be. What's the rule going to be? I assume it will be some version of having two guys on either side of the 2B bag as the pitch is delivered, but that's not buying you a ton of space on a shift. For a shift vs. lefties they'll probably be able to position the SS deep and have him break to his left as the pitch gets released. It will put him in essentially the same place as where they get played with the current shift.
    Last edited by M2; 12-24-2020 at 01:30 AM.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I suspect the ultimate answer to beating the shift is the hitters will render it useless. I'm also a little dubious about how successful a ban will be. What's the rule going to be? I assume it will be some version of having two guys on either side of the 2B bag as the pitch is delivered, but that's not buying you a ton of space on a shift. For a shift vs. lefties they'll probably be able to position the SS deep and have him break to his left as the pitch gets released. It will put him in essentially the same place as where they get played with the current shift.
    I have similar thoughts. However, it should eliminate the extreme shifts where everyone is on one side and the 2B is basically another RF. Like this:

    Attachment 16843
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

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  16. #54
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    The shift works today because, IMO, the art of hitting is in decline. I don't think the shift would have had as much of an effect 30-40 years ago (but I could be wrong). I don't like the shift. Strategy or not, I just don't like it.

    Looking at how long the game has been around, I'm shocked it wasn't thought of years ago. LOL
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    The shift works today because, IMO, the art of hitting is in decline. I don't think the shift would have had as much of an effect 30-40 years ago (but I could be wrong). I don't like the shift. Strategy or not, I just don't like it.

    Looking at how long the game has been around, I'm shocked it wasn't thought of years ago. LOL
    The art of hitting is in decline because the art of pitching has exceeded all expectations.

    The reaction ability of hitters must be extraordinary to cope with the pitching advances in velocity, spin rate, movement.

    Combine all this with the shift and you have a one-sided game.

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  20. #56
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I suspect the ultimate answer to beating the shift is the hitters will render it useless. I'm also a little dubious about how successful a ban will be. What's the rule going to be? I assume it will be some version of having two guys on either side of the 2B bag as the pitch is delivered, but that's not buying you a ton of space on a shift. For a shift vs. lefties they'll probably be able to position the SS deep and have him break to his left as the pitch gets released. It will put him in essentially the same place as where they get played with the current shift.
    I think initially they might just keep it simple. The infielders will be two on each side of second base, however shallow or deep they choose to play. They will be prohibited from crossing over until after the pitch has been released. I guess at that point they can still try and shift but it becomes more difficult.

    If an infielder crosses over before pitch is released, there needs to be a penalty. Maybe an automatic “ball” call or safety if ball is hit in play. Penalty can be declined if manager likes the outcome.

    Rule would still allow infield to shade hitter one way or the other, as long as the mid-line is not breached.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-24-2020 at 09:54 AM.

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  22. #57
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    The art of hitting is in decline because the art of pitching has exceeded all expectations.

    The reaction ability of hitters must be extraordinary to cope with the pitching advances in velocity, spin rate, movement.

    Combine all this with the shift and you have a one-sided game.
    This keeps getting brought up, however, hitting the ball the other way is actually easier the faster the pitch. The idea behind going the other way is to be behind the ball, which is easier the faster the pitch is. Pulling a 98 MPH fastball is much harder than going the other way with it. If you can rip it and pull it, you have the skills to go the other way.

    The issue is that pitchers are jamming hitters inside more often. But as I mentioned earlier, there are many pitches in an AB, and if a pitcher only pitches inside, the hitter can cheat and crush those over the shift for XBH’s. Pitchers have to pitch outside and with off speed stuff during each AB, or else they will get crushed. If hitters wait for those pitches, they should be able to serve them the other way rather easily, if they are trained with that swing.

    But as I mentioned earlier too, every hitter these days only knows how to grip it and rip it, swing as hard as they can from their heels. If hitters changed that, I am convinced the shift will stop being an issue.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

  23. #58
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    This keeps getting brought up, however, hitting the ball the other way is actually easier the faster the pitch. The idea behind going the other way is to be behind the ball, which is easier the faster the pitch is. Pulling a 98 MPH fastball is much harder than going the other way with it. If you can rip it and pull it, you have the skills to go the other way.

    The issue is that pitchers are jamming hitters inside more often. But as I mentioned earlier, there are many pitches in an AB, and if a pitcher only pitches inside, the hitter can cheat and crush those over the shift for XBH’s. Pitchers have to pitch outside and with off speed stuff during each AB, or else they will get crushed. If hitters wait for those pitches, they should be able to serve them the other way rather easily, if they are trained with that swing.

    But as I mentioned earlier too, every hitter these days only knows how to grip it and rip it, swing as hard as they can from their heels. If hitters changed that, I am convinced the shift will stop being an issue.
    I believe this is applicable to a different era.

    Bat control is extremely difficult facing 95+ MPH fastballs with movement. It’s difficult to place the ball by choice - whether oppo or pull - against such pitching. The reaction time is too limited. It’s not just a question of waiting pitchers out.

    If it were easier to hit to the opposite field, we’d see it more often. We don’t because batters can’t do it on demand against this pitching. Grip and rip is a reaction - a counter to today’s pitching and shift by seeking to score with more long balls.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-24-2020 at 11:27 AM.

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  25. #59
    rest in power, king Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    This keeps getting brought up, however, hitting the ball the other way is actually easier the faster the pitch. The idea behind going the other way is to be behind the ball, which is easier the faster the pitch is. Pulling a 98 MPH fastball is much harder than going the other way with it. If you can rip it and pull it, you have the skills to go the other way.

    The issue is that pitchers are jamming hitters inside more often. But as I mentioned earlier, there are many pitches in an AB, and if a pitcher only pitches inside, the hitter can cheat and crush those over the shift for XBH’s. Pitchers have to pitch outside and with off speed stuff during each AB, or else they will get crushed. If hitters wait for those pitches, they should be able to serve them the other way rather easily, if they are trained with that swing.

    But as I mentioned earlier too, every hitter these days only knows how to grip it and rip it, swing as hard as they can from their heels. If hitters changed that, I am convinced the shift will stop being an issue.
    There’s a difference between being late on a pitch and actually hitting it well to the opposite field, though.

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  27. #60
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    Re: Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    There’s a difference between being late on a pitch and actually hitting it well to the opposite field, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I believe this is applicable to a different era.

    Bat control is extremely difficult facing 95+ MPH fastballs with movement. It’s difficult to place the ball by choice - whether oppo or pull - against such pitching. The reaction time is too limited. It’s not just a question of waiting pitchers out.

    If it were easier to hit to the opposite field, we’d see it more often. We don’t because batters can’t do it on demand against this pitching. Grip and rip is a reaction - a counter to today’s pitching and shift by seeking to score with more long balls.
    Hitting the other way requires a completely different swing than pulling it. It’s not about doing the same thing but swinging later.

    The best way to describe it is that it’s like tennis, with pulling the ball requiring a forehand swing and hitting the other way requiring a backhand swing. Hitters these days just don’t learn or use that backhand swing. Again, that backhand swing is actually is better and easier way to hit a 98 MPH fastball, as it allows you to wait a fraction of a second later, you have more time to hit the ball with this swing.

    The reason why everyone swings from their heels with a grip it and rip it approach is because they are coached that way. Analytics revealed that that approach produces the best results overall, pulling it and launching it produce more HR’s. When that happened, teams started using the shift to protect against it and because they didn’t have to worry about batters going the other way.

    I would think that the analytics would reveal that with these extreme shifts happening all the time, that the grip it and rip it approach isn’t as productive anymore, and would encourage coaches and batters to go the other way more often. Of course that would take time.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023


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