Owners discussing banning shift as part of new rules for next season

[Griffey012]

Hitting the other way requires a completely different swing than pulling it. It’s not about doing the same thing but swinging later.

The best way to describe it is that it’s like tennis, with pulling the ball requiring a forehand swing and hitting the other way requiring a backhand swing. Hitters these days just don’t learn or use that backhand swing. Again, that backhand swing is actually is better and easier way to hit a 98 MPH fastball, as it allows you to wait a fraction of a second later, you have more time to hit the ball with this swing.

The reason why everyone swings from their heels with a grip it and rip it approach is because they are coached that way. Analytics revealed that that approach produces the best results overall, pulling it and launching it produce more HR’s. When that happened, teams started using the shift to protect against it and because they didn’t have to worry about batters going the other way.

I would think that the analytics would reveal that with these extreme shifts happening all the time, that the grip it and rip it approach isn’t as productive anymore, and would encourage coaches and batters to go the other way more often. Of course that would take time.

So the solution to beating the shift is to hit from the opposite side of the plate? That analogy doesn't fit at all. Tennis players hit cross court and straight down the line with both forehands and backhands.

If you wait a fraction of a second later and the pitch is on the inner half you just struck out or broke your bat at best. And as soon as the analytics start to show a hitter adjusting to purposefully go oppo, have fun with those 98 mph fastballs up and in.

[texasdave]

As far as hitters not being able to go the other way, I found this article on Joey Votto talking about hitting very interesting: http://probaseballinsider.com/joey-v...ips-for-youth/

He goes on to explain how the best players that are having their analytics constantly analyzed are such complete hitters that they have always been able to accomplish whatever they want on a baseball diamond.

They have the unique ability to be able to “do anything they want at any time” when hitting a baseball. As Votto said in the interview “You ask these guys ‘hey will you one-hop the left center wall, hit that sign in the right center gap, hit a short line drive to the 2nd baseman… they can do anything they want at any time.”

Seems that would indicate that Votto believes they can go the other way.

[757690]

So the solution to beating the shift is to hit from the opposite side of the plate? That analogy doesn't fit at all. Tennis players hit cross court and straight down the line with both forehands and backhands.

If you wait a fraction of a second later and the pitch is middle in you just struck out or broke your bat at best. And as soon as the analytics start to show a hitter adjusting to purposefully go oppo, have fun with those 98 mph fastballs up and in.

Lol, obviously it’s not a perfect analogy. The point is that it is a different swing altogether.

When pulling the ball, you stay tight, with your hands as close to your body as possible, your shoulders and hips closed in, as you try to create a tight whip of the bat, getting your whole body behind the swing. .

When hitting the other way, you open up completely, your hips and shoulder open up so they are facing the pitcher, you extend your arms and hands away from your body, and you use just your arms and hands to flick at the ball, not getting any whip from your body.

If you only learn the first swing, you’ll never be able to hit the other way. But if you learn the second swing, it’s not that difficult.

One other issue. Everyone keeps bringing up that pitchers throw harder these days. This is true, but hitters are bigger, stronger and better athletes as well. They should be able to handle the harder throwers better than previous MLB hitters.

[Kc61]

Lol, obviously it’s not a perfect analogy. The point is that it is a different swing altogether.

When pulling the ball, you stay tight, with your hands as close to your body as possible, your shoulders and hips closed in, as you try to create a tight whip of the bat, getting your whole body behind the swing. .

When hitting the other way, you open up completely, your hips and shoulder open up so they are facing the pitcher, you extend your arms and hands away from your body, and you use just your arms and hands to flick at the ball, not getting any whip from your body.

If you only learn the first swing, you’ll never be able to hit the other way. But if you learn the second swing, it’s not that difficult.

One other issue. Everyone keeps bringing up that pitchers throw harder these days. This is true, but hitters are bigger, stronger and better athletes as well. They should be able to handle the harder throwers better than previous MLB hitters.

The issue with hitters is reaction time and pitch recognition. At some point it’s virtually impossible for humans to react quickly enough. Nothing to do with size and strength, little to do with athleticism.

I used to think hitting oppo was the answer, but now I don’t. You’ll notice hitters do not aim for the wide open spaces in the opposite field. It’s because they can’t hit that way with authority on demand. It’s too difficult.

I recall an article explaining that most hitters (and coaches) chose to hit “over the shift” rather than away from the shift. That way they could hit with authority, maybe forego some BA, and score runs with long balls.

But hitters shouldn’t have to make that decision. Hitting is hard enough - a 35% on base percentage is very good despite 65% outs. Baseball should make changes so that pitching and shifting don’t make batting even tougher.

[westofyou]

How hard is hitting?

You ever walk into a pitch-black room full of furniture that you've never been in before and try to walk through it without bumping into anything?

Well, it's harder than that.

~ Ted Kluszewski

[JaxRed]

I think Wee Willie Keeler said it best. 'Hit it where they ain't (allowed to stand)'

[Griffey012]

Lol, obviously it’s not a perfect analogy. The point is that it is a different swing altogether.

When pulling the ball, you stay tight, with your hands as close to your body as possible, your shoulders and hips closed in, as you try to create a tight whip of the bat, getting your whole body behind the swing. .

When hitting the other way, you open up completely, your hips and shoulder open up so they are facing the pitcher, you extend your arms and hands away from your body, and you use just your arms and hands to flick at the ball, not getting any whip from your body.

If you only learn the first swing, you’ll never be able to hit the other way. But if you learn the second swing, it’s not that difficult.

One other issue. Everyone keeps bringing up that pitchers throw harder these days. This is true, but hitters are bigger, stronger and better athletes as well. They should be able to handle the harder throwers better than previous MLB hitters.

That's how you hit oppo if you want to inside out a pitch. But you can't inside out anything with authority. Also what happens when the pitchers tunnel that breaking ball with the inside fastball, happy flailing. Now you struck out and didn't even attempt to hit the ball hard.

The real difference between pulling the ball and hitting it opposite field with any sort of punch is where you make contact. Picture a tic tac toe board in front if home plate. You want to hit the inside pitch at the top left square and you want to hit the outside pitch in the bottom right square. And you are largely using the exact same swing with the exception of driving your hips through the outside pitch.

[kaldaniels]

I’d rather try lowering the mound or shrinking the strike zone a bit if the issue breeds from the fact that pitching has just gotten too good. Adding a knob to the control panel allowing modifications to fielder positioning should be a last resort.

[REDREAD]

I suspect the ultimate answer to beating the shift is the hitters will render it useless. I'm also a little dubious about how successful a ban will be. What's the rule going to be? I assume it will be some version of having two guys on either side of the 2B bag as the pitch is delivered, but that's not buying you a ton of space on a shift. For a shift vs. lefties they'll probably be able to position the SS deep and have him break to his left as the pitch gets released. It will put him in essentially the same place as where they get played with the current shift.

Another idea mentioned in the article was to require all infielders to be on the dirt until the pitch is released.
That would pretty much eliminate the 2nd right fielder that a lot of the shifts have today.
If the SS and/or 2b wants to sprint to the left as soon as the ball is delivered, I'm fine with that, it won't be nearly as effective
as the shift is today.
BTW, I support banning or limiting the shift to add excitement to the game.
The fact that it would also penalize teams that put statues at 2b is another benefit (even though, short term, it hurts the Reds).
I'd also like a return to more athletic 2b.

[foster15]

The shift works today because, IMO, the art of hitting is in decline. I don't think the shift would have had as much of an effect 30-40 years ago (but I could be wrong). I don't like the shift. Strategy or not, I just don't like it.

Looking at how long the game has been around, I'm shocked it wasn't thought of years ago. LOL

The shift has been around for a long time. But it was only used on certain power hitters who hardly ever got hits going the opposite way and I believe it was mainly lefties. I certainly remember the Reds playing a shift against McCovey and Stargell. Now a days, 70 percent or more of the hitters are swinging from the heels and that means you play them like you did the two aforementioned Willies.

[NeilHamburger]

Another idea mentioned in the article was to require all infielders to be on the dirt until the pitch is released.
That would pretty much eliminate the 2nd right fielder that a lot of the shifts have today.
If the SS and/or 2b wants to sprint to the left as soon as the ball is delivered, I'm fine with that, it won't be nearly as effective
as the shift is today.
BTW, I support banning or limiting the shift to add excitement to the game.
The fact that it would also penalize teams that put statues at 2b is another benefit (even though, short term, it hurts the Reds).
I'd also like a return to more athletic 2b.

Remember when this used to be how the middle infield played? God, baseball was so much more fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilco3oQlauc

[Ron Madden]

I don't know what MLB should do about the shift. (If anything)

I do know it's not as easy for hitters to go the other way with any consistency and authority against today's big league pitchers as some people seem to think it is.

[757690]

I think Wee Willie Keeler said it best. 'Hit it where they ain't (allowed to stand)'

And when they ain’t in literally half the field, it’s even wiser.

For those that think the batter uses the same swing to pull and to go the other way, just watch Joey Votto, Shogo, Pete Rose, Ichiro, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, and Rod Carew hit, and then watch Scott Schebler, Jesse Winker, Nick Castellanos, Eugenio Suarez and Yasiel Puig hit. It’s totally different.

There are guys out there like Votto and Shogo who are succeeding at it right now, against these pitchers that everyone thinks are impossible to hit the other way. It can be done, it just requires a different mindset, and better coaching.

It’s not about reaction time, because it require faster reaction time to pull a 98 MHP fastball than to hit it the other way. If batters are quick enough to pull these pitchers, they have to be quick enough to go the other way.

It’s also not about hitting the ball with authority. The goal of hitting the ball the other way is to get on base, to hit them where they ain’t, to hit the ball over the infielder’s head and drop the ball in front of the OF. But no one wants to do that anymore. If they start doing that, the shifts will greatly be reduced.

[Old school 1983]

And when they ain’t in literally half the field, it’s even wiser.

For those that think the batter uses the same swing to pull and to go the other way, just watch Joey Votto, Shogo, Pete Rose, Ichiro, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, and Rod Carew hit, and then watch Scott Schebler, Jesse Winker, Nick Castellanos, Eugenio Suarez and Yasiel Puig hit. It’s totally different.

There are guys out there like Votto and Shogo who are succeeding at it right now, against these pitchers that everyone thinks are impossible to hit the other way. It can be done, it just requires a different mindset, and better coaching.

It’s not about reaction time, because it require faster reaction time to pull a 98 MHP fastball than to hit it the other way. If batters are quick enough to pull these pitchers, they have to be quick enough to go the other way.

It’s also not about hitting the ball with authority. The goal of hitting the ball the other way is to get on base, to hit them where they ain’t, to hit the ball over the infielder’s head and drop the ball in front of the OF. But no one wants to do that anymore. If they start doing that, the shifts will greatly be reduced.

Look at the talent you listed in the go the other way group. Then look at the talent in the other group. I think that tells us a lot. Those guys were upper echelon as compared to guys that are good but nothing special. I think the swing from the heels approach is too rampant in today’s game. But not everyone has the talent to hit the ball the other way on purpose. Especially against today’s pitching.

[757690]

Look at the talent you listed in the go the other way group. Then look at the talent in the other group. I think that tells us a lot. Those guys were upper echelon as compared to guys that are good but nothing special. I think the swing from the heels approach is too rampant in today’s game. But not everyone has the talent to hit the ball the other way on purpose. Especially against today’s pitching.

The guys in the second group are mostly much better athletes than the first group. They are bigger, stronger and faster. They have more natural talent than the first group. They should be better than the first group if natural talent was all that mattered.

The second group are more talented because they work on their hitting skills and have mastered hitting to all fields and not just being a caveman and going to the plate to crush the ball on every swing. I would guess that if the second group worked on hitting to all fields, they would be closer in talent to the first group.