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Thread: Reds all-time single-season team

  1. #1
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
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    Reds all-time single-season team

    By Mark Sheldon @m_sheldon


    CINCINNATI -- Putting together a roster based on all-time seasons is no easy task. Factor in the long history of great Reds players, and deciding an all-time roster based on their best seasons gets complicated.

    Which Johnny Bench MVP season gets selected? Ted Kluszewski or Joey Votto at first base? Who should be the starting pitcher?

    As part of an ongoing series for MLB.com, here’s a look at the team the Reds might field among its best of the best.
    reds.com https://www.mlb.com
    Last edited by Ron Madden; 01-04-2021 at 07:07 PM.


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    I wear Elly colored glass WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Before reading the article:

    1b (1954) Ted Kluszewski
    2b (1975) Joe Morgan
    SS (1996) Barry Larkin
    3b (2019) Eugenio Suarez
    LF (1977) George Foster
    CF (1987) Eric Davis
    RF (1962) Frank Robinson
    CA (1970) Johnny Bench

    RH (1993) Jose Rijo
    RH (1939) Bucky Walters
    RH (1965) Jim Maloney
    RH (1947) Ewell Blackwell
    RH (2020) Trevor Bauer
    Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. -- Carl Sagan (Pale Blue Dot)

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Didn't we do this last off-season? Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongVerb View Post
    Before reading the article:

    1b (1954) Ted Kluszewski
    2b (1975) Joe Morgan
    SS (1996) Barry Larkin
    3b (2019) Eugenio Suarez
    LF (1977) George Foster
    CF (1987) Eric Davis
    RF (1962) Frank Robinson
    CA (1970) Johnny Bench

    RH (1993) Jose Rijo
    RH (1939) Bucky Walters
    RH (1965) Jim Maloney
    RH (1947) Ewell Blackwell
    RH (2020) Trevor Bauer
    You got 7 of 8 for the position players. Here is the link to the actual article:
    https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/reds-a...le-season-team

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    You got 7 of 8 for the position players. Here is the link to the actual article:
    https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/reds-a...le-season-team
    The one WrongVerb selected, Eugenio Suarez in 2019 at third base instead of Pete Rose in 1978, was a selection of a guy in Suarez who had a higher WAR, 3.9, than did Rose, 3.4. However in 1970 Tony Perez played third and had a 7.2 WAR. Doggie wasn't Brooks Robinson in the field, but neither was Pete. I'd take Perez.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    The one WrongVerb selected, Eugenio Suarez in 2019 at third base instead of Pete Rose in 1978, was a selection of a guy in Suarez who had a higher WAR, 3.9, than did Rose, 3.4. However in 1970 Tony Perez played third and had a 7.2 WAR. Doggie wasn't Brooks Robinson in the field, but neither was Pete. I'd take Perez.
    Aww, give it to Pete. Here's why, he would've had a spot on the team as 1973 left fielder if he hadn't been so generous as to move to 3rd base and hand Foster left fielder 1977.

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    I wear Elly colored glass WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    The one WrongVerb selected, Eugenio Suarez in 2019 at third base instead of Pete Rose in 1978, was a selection of a guy in Suarez who had a higher WAR, 3.9, than did Rose, 3.4. However in 1970 Tony Perez played third and had a 7.2 WAR. Doggie wasn't Brooks Robinson in the field, but neither was Pete. I'd take Perez.
    Thanks for backing me up on Suarez. I didn't even think of Doggie at 3b, but yes, I'd go with him over Suarez.
    Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. -- Carl Sagan (Pale Blue Dot)

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Here's the all-time, single-season roster as determined solely by Fangraphs WAR in seasons since 1900:

    Code:
    Pos	Name/Year	fWAR	Commnets
    C	1972 Bench	 9.2	Bench had the top 6 and 11 of the top 12 seasons
    1B	1954 Kluszewski	 7.4	Votto had seasons 2-5
    2B	1975 Morgan	11.0	Morgan had the top 5 seasons
    SS	1996 Larkin	 6.8	Larkin had the top 4 seasons
    3B	1970 Perez	 8.2	Rose had the 2nd best season, Groh had 4 of top 10
    LF	1977 Foster 	 8.9	Rose had the 2nd best season, Robinson had 5 of top 10
    CF	1905 Seymour	 8.7	Davis had the 2nd best season, 9 different players in top 10
    RF	1962 Robinson	 8.2	Robinson had the top 3 seasons
    SP1	1947 Blackwell	 7.6	This season represents 30% of his career WAR
    SP2	1982 Soto	 7.1	Had a .254 Reds career BABIP, but .277 in this season
    SP3	1993 Rijo	 7.1	Rijo is 4th all-time career WAR as Reds' SP
    SP4	1923 Luque	 6.8	Had the 2nd most IP for the Reds all-time
    SP5	1901 Hahn	 6.6	His '03 season was also 6.6 WAR
    RP	1990 Dibble	 4.3	Dibble had the Reds top 3 RP seasons in 89-91
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    The one WrongVerb selected, Eugenio Suarez in 2019 at third base instead of Pete Rose in 1978, was a selection of a guy in Suarez who had a higher WAR, 3.9, than did Rose, 3.4. However in 1970 Tony Perez played third and had a 7.2 WAR. Doggie wasn't Brooks Robinson in the field, but neither was Pete. I'd take Perez.
    I need to address the final part of your post. Perez not only wasn't Brooks Robinson, he was the polar opposite of Brooks Robinson at the hot corner. And Pete Rose was much better than Perez. Perez was so bad that they tried Dan Driessen there instead of moving Perez back there. When they needed Foster in the lineup, they didn't think about putting the great Tony Perez back there again, they decided to have Rose learn on the fly.

    In 1970, Perez had 35 errors at 3rd base which was pretty normal for him. To list greatest seasons by positions, you'd think the player would be have to be competent at that position.

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    I have to go with Johnny Vander Meer’s 1938, and the record that will never be broken.

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    I need to address the final part of your post. Perez not only wasn't Brooks Robinson, he was the polar opposite of Brooks Robinson at the hot corner. And Pete Rose was much better than Perez. Perez was so bad that they tried Dan Driessen there instead of moving Perez back there. When they needed Foster in the lineup, they didn't think about putting the great Tony Perez back there again, they decided to have Rose learn on the fly.

    In 1970, Perez had 35 errors at 3rd base which was pretty normal for him. To list greatest seasons by positions, you'd think the player would be have to be competent at that position.
    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the odd thing is that, using stats at Baseball Reference.com, I find that Perez in 1970 had defensive WAR [dWAR] of 0.2 while Rose in 1978 had dWAR of -0.8. [yes, negative 0.8]
    I'm not certain why the dWAR scores were what they were. Yes, Perez in 1970 had 35 errors while Rose in 1978 had 15 errors. Perhaps part of the difference was artificial turf, which was much more prevalent by 1978, reduced errors. The NL fielding percentage for third basemen was .945 in 1970 and .952 in 1978. Even then, Perez's .923 F.Pct. was below the league average while Rose's .961 was above the league average.
    Perez in 1970 had better range than did Rose in 1978. Perez lead in chances, 452 to 388, putouts 131 to 117, assists 286 to 256, and double plays, 34 to 23.
    Anyway, Perez was a significantly better hitter in 1970 than was Rose in 1978. With neither guy all that great in the field, I'd take Perez.
    The better argument for taking Rose at third would be to consider not his 1978 season but his 1976 season, when his WAR was 7.0. I haven't checked out his defensive stats for 1976.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    You got 7 of 8 for the position players. Here is the link to the actual article:
    https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/reds-a...le-season-team
    I find it odd the article is showing a highlight clip of Larkin when he wore the #15 jersey.

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the odd thing is that, using stats at Baseball Reference.com, I find that Perez in 1970 had defensive WAR [dWAR] of 0.2 while Rose in 1978 had dWAR of -0.8. [yes, negative 0.8]
    I'm not certain why the dWAR scores were what they were. Yes, Perez in 1970 had 35 errors while Rose in 1978 had 15 errors. Perhaps part of the difference was artificial turf, which was much more prevalent by 1978, reduced errors. The NL fielding percentage for third basemen was .945 in 1970 and .952 in 1978. Even then, Perez's .923 F.Pct. was below the league average while Rose's .961 was above the league average.
    Perez in 1970 had better range than did Rose in 1978. Perez lead in chances, 452 to 388, putouts 131 to 117, assists 286 to 256, and double plays, 34 to 23.
    Anyway, Perez was a significantly better hitter in 1970 than was Rose in 1978. With neither guy all that great in the field, I'd take Perez.
    The better argument for taking Rose at third would be to consider not his 1978 season but his 1976 season, when his WAR was 7.0. I haven't checked out his defensive stats for 1976.
    Good call on the artificial turf. I did notice Perez' errors did go down in 1971, his final year at 3rd base and first full year Reds played home games on turf. Add in that Philly and Pittsburgh added turf stadiums that makes a lot of sense. I guess Pete also had an advantage because by the time he took over 3rd, Concepcion's range was out of this world. I do believe that if given a choice, I'd take Rose every time just because he had a sense of pride about everything he did on the field and took not being a liability in the field as serious as he did hitting. Not a knock on Perez but I'm sure he thought of his job was more with the bat and that's what he worked on most. Perez was just seems too tall and slender to fit the 3rd base role and not sure he was that rangy even 8 years difference between he and Rose. Tony was never that fleet of foot.

    Jack Billingham mentioned how when Rose took over 3rd base, it was amazing the work he put in because when Pete was given a role or position, he was going to own it.

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Here's the all-time, single-season roster as determined solely by Fangraphs WAR in seasons since 1900:

    Code:
    Pos	Name/Year	fWAR	Commnets
    C	1972 Bench	 9.2	Bench had the top 6 and 11 of the top 12 seasons
    1B	1954 Kluszewski	 7.4	Votto had seasons 2-5
    2B	1975 Morgan	11.0	Morgan had the top 5 seasons
    SS	1996 Larkin	 6.8	Larkin had the top 4 seasons
    3B	1970 Perez	 8.2	Rose had the 2nd best season, Groh had 4 of top 10
    LF	1977 Foster 	 8.9	Rose had the 2nd best season, Robinson had 5 of top 10
    CF	1905 Seymour	 8.7	Davis had the 2nd best season, 9 different players in top 10
    RF	1962 Robinson	 8.2	Robinson had the top 3 seasons
    SP1	1947 Blackwell	 7.6	This season represents 30% of his career WAR
    SP2	1982 Soto	 7.1	Had a .254 Reds career BABIP, but .277 in this season
    SP3	1993 Rijo	 7.1	Rijo is 4th all-time career WAR as Reds' SP
    SP4	1923 Luque	 6.8	Had the 2nd most IP for the Reds all-time
    SP5	1901 Hahn	 6.6	His '03 season was also 6.6 WAR
    RP	1990 Dibble	 4.3	Dibble had the Reds top 3 RP seasons in 89-91
    It is hurt from a WAR perspective by the strike shortening the season, but Kevin Mitchell had himself a very nice season in 1994.
    .326 .429 .681 1.110 185 with 30 homes in just 95 games.
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...itchke01.shtml

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    Re: Reds all-time single-season team

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    It is hurt from a WAR perspective by the strike shortening the season, but Kevin Mitchell had himself a very nice season in 1994.
    .326 .429 .681 1.110 185 with 30 homes in just 95 games.
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...itchke01.shtml
    I wish Kevin Mitchell had had a chance for a full season in 1994, because he might have put up a season that could challenge George Foster's 1977 season for best all-time.

    Mitchell played only three seasons with the Reds (1993 and 1994, then reacquired in 1996 at the July trade deadline), but tore the cover off the ball throughout his entire Reds career. Just an absolute force of nature offensively in his brief tenure with the Reds.

    1993:
    .341/.385/.601/.986, 19 HR's, 64 RBI's, 160 OPS+ in 93 games

    1994:
    .326/.429/.681/1.110, 30 HR's, 77 RBI's, 185 OPS+ in 95 games

    1996 (after the trade with Boston):
    .325/.447/.579/1.026, 6 HR's, 26 RBI's, 169 OPS+ in 37 games

    Career with Reds:
    .332/.414/.631/1.045, 55 HR's, 167 RBI's, 172 OPS+ in 225 games
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.

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