Turn Off Ads?
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 30 of 30

Thread: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

  1. #16
    I rig polls REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    29,254

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    I consider Votto's contract a good one for the Reds.
    It worked out about as well as we could have hoped.
    We all knew the last 3 years or so would be painful when he signed the deal.
    Same with BP, he was productive for most of his deal, except for the last year.
    Reds got to keep both of them during the Walt era when they were going for it.
    If those two guys hadn't been signed, the team would have likely been no better off.
    It's not as if the Reds would have invested the money saved by not signing Votto when they were tanking.. That money would have just gone into the owners pockets.

    2020.. The argument could be made that Votto hurt the team last year. IMO, it didn't matter, that was a flawed team anyhow. I don't want to debate if the season was a success or not, but I would rather have had Votto to watch all these years than an extra 25 million to add to the 2020 payroll. 25 million more last year probably doesn't win the division title.
    [Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  2. Likes:

    RedsBaron (01-11-2021)


  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #17
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    45,734

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Given the moribund state of this offseason (and other pro sports leagues have NOT been this inactive), you've really got to start to wonder whether MLB cares at all. This constant barrage of nothing is brutal.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  5. Likes:

    757690 (01-11-2021),REDREAD (01-12-2021),Tom Servo (01-11-2021),Wonderful Monds (01-11-2021)

  6. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    970

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I consider Votto's contract a good one for the Reds.
    It worked out about as well as we could have hoped.
    We all knew the last 3 years or so would be painful when he signed the deal.
    Same with BP, he was productive for most of his deal, except for the last year.
    Reds got to keep both of them during the Walt era when they were going for it.
    If those two guys hadn't been signed, the team would have likely been no better off.
    It's not as if the Reds would have invested the money saved by not signing Votto when they were tanking.. That money would have just gone into the owners pockets.

    2020.. The argument could be made that Votto hurt the team last year. IMO, it didn't matter, that was a flawed team anyhow. I don't want to debate if the season was a success or not, but I would rather have had Votto to watch all these years than an extra 25 million to add to the 2020 payroll. 25 million more last year probably doesn't win the division title.
    How do you figure this was a good contract? He has played 7 of 10 years on thos contract. The first was hampered with injury. The next 3 were superstar years worthy of the contract. The last 3 haven't been horrible but taken individually they haven't been worth 25 million a year. If the last three are any indication, along with Father Time, his value in the next 3 years probably won't be worth 5 million a year. Basically the Reds have paid 225 million for 3 years. I don't blame Votto but dragging a 25 million a year boat anchor hinders performance.

  7. #19
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West N. Carolina
    Posts
    62,139

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Given the moribund state of this offseason (and other pro sports leagues have NOT been this inactive), you've really got to start to wonder whether MLB cares at all. This constant barrage of nothing is brutal.
    It's like walking around a Kmart where everyone knows the end is coming, if we didn't know better it's almost like they are planning to go out of business.
    Go Gators!

  8. Likes:

    M2 (01-12-2021),REDREAD (01-12-2021),Tom Servo (01-11-2021)

  9. #20
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    35,036

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Given the moribund state of this offseason (and other pro sports leagues have NOT been this inactive), you've really got to start to wonder whether MLB cares at all. This constant barrage of nothing is brutal.
    Moneyballing themselves into obscurity.
    “I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”

  10. Likes:

    M2 (01-12-2021)

  11. #21
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Venice
    Posts
    33,292

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Líam Hendricks signed with the White Sox for 3 years, $54M.

    It seems the White Sox didn’t get the memo that the owners are broke because of Covid. Neither did the Dodgers, Nationals, Mets or Padres.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

  12. Likes:

    REDREAD (01-12-2021)

  13. #22
    I rig polls REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    29,254

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by TNRED View Post
    How do you figure this was a good contract? He has played 7 of 10 years on thos contract. The first was hampered with injury. The next 3 were superstar years worthy of the contract. The last 3 haven't been horrible but taken individually they haven't been worth 25 million a year. If the last three are any indication, along with Father Time, his value in the next 3 years probably won't be worth 5 million a year. Basically the Reds have paid 225 million for 3 years. I don't blame Votto but dragging a 25 million a year boat anchor hinders performance.
    So Joey signed his extension in 2012.
    OPS starting in 2012 through 2017: 1014, 926, 799 (injury), 1000, 985, 1032
    Now at 2018: 837, 768, 800

    So I count 5 seasons with an OPS of 900 or better. He was worth it those years.

    I will concede that since 2018, he hasn't been a superstar, but honestly, 837 OPS and 800 OPS are not horrible.
    Those translate to an OPS+ of 126 and 110. Yes, I realize that 1b , especially well paid ones are expected
    to contribute more, but he wasn't exactly a boat anchor.

    IMO, 2014 (he was hurt) and 2019 were bad seasons.
    2018 and 2020 were ok seasons, but pretty good considering his age.

    The key point I am trying to make is that from 2018-2020, the Reds were not relevant anyhow, so who cares?
    I know some people will argue that 2020, the Reds were relevant, so let me reframe that for 2020 a bit..
    if you subtracted Votto, either the Reds would have had to sign a good 1b or OF (which costs $$) to get Votto's 800 OPS bat.
    Winker was the DH so he could not have filled the hole. Yes, in theory the Reds would have had 25 million more to spend, but honestly, I do not trust Dick Williams and Krall to spend it wisely. I don't want to start a debate on that, but I will say this.
    They spent about 10 million on Miley last season. 7 million on Shogo, about 2 million on Strop, 12 million (?) or so on Castenallos.. If you want to complain about not optimizing dollars last season, those four signings should be focused on.
    And if you like Shogo, that's fine, focus on the other 3.

    I just want to see an argument that Votto's deal has actually hurt the Reds. I don't see it yet.
    Votto's deal kept him around in the Walt years. It's not Votto's fault that the Reds decided to tank until he got older.
    That's poor planning by the Reds.
    [Phil ] Castellini celebrated the team's farm system and noted the team had promising prospects who would one day be great Reds -- and then joke then they'd be ex-Reds, saying "of course we're going to lose them". #SellTheTeamBob

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  14. Likes:

    Chip R (01-14-2021)

  15. #23
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    45,734

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Moneyballing themselves into obscurity.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  16. Likes:

    Tom Servo (01-12-2021)

  17. #24
    Winning is fun. RiverRat13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,925

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Structural changes to help the MLB offseason:

    - Salary Cap ($210mm)
    - Salary Floor ($120mm)
    - Five years of team control instead of six
    - Raise minimum salaries
    - Max Salary/years (6 years/$180mm)

  18. #25
    "So Fla Red"
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    5,629

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Líam Hendricks signed with the White Sox for 3 years, $54M.

    It seems the White Sox didn’t get the memo that the owners are broke because of Covid. Neither did the Dodgers, Nationals, Mets or Padres.
    So 5 of the 30 are opening the pocket books...

    The Mets now have the unlimited Steve Cohen money printing press machines and the NY market
    LAD makes $300M for TV each year in the #2 market
    White Sox are in the #3 market and sense a window opening
    Padres are the only game in town and have a window opening

    The Sport is fundamentally broken wrg to 75% of franchises keeping their top talent, the pandemic exposed the low tide and has magnified the financial inequalities

  19. Likes:

    757690 (01-12-2021),REDREAD (01-12-2021)

  20. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,752

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by oregonred View Post
    So 5 of the 30 are opening the pocket books...

    The Mets now have the unlimited Steve Cohen money printing press machines and the NY market
    LAD makes $300M for TV each year in the #2 market
    White Sox are in the #3 market and sense a window opening
    Padres are the only game in town and have a window opening

    The Sport is fundamentally broken wrg to 75% of franchises keeping their top talent, the pandemic exposed the low tide and has magnified the financial inequalities
    I think this is correct. A revenue reduction hurts the small market teams relatively more. Baseball has danced around the inequities for awhile. It's coming to a head.

    A number of factors are in play.

    Increasingly, the cost of overpaying for a LTC is becoming more apparent. The contributions of pre-arb players relative to mid-thirties players has made LTC's less desirable. It is better business to put resources into developing talent. Further, analytics have made it easier to ID ML capable young players. Teams are reluctant to trade top prospects. Moreover, teams are willing to wait out FA signings for a more favorable deal with less back end contract risk. Baseball is experiencing a decline in star power that casual fans find attractive.

    The MLB players union will rightly seek to support player compensation for existing ML players. It is not clear how much flexibility remains within a system in which all teams are not created equal. With a new CBA on the horizon, teams must not only plan for COVID this year, but also must consider a potential for a work stoppage in 2022. It's easy to see why certain teams would seek to minimize future payroll obligations.

  21. Likes:

    757690 (01-12-2021),bm1475 (01-12-2021),reds77 (01-13-2021),Revering4Blue (01-12-2021),Ron Madden (01-12-2021)

  22. #27
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    20,210

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Pretty much every FA signing so far has exceeded the predictions in dollar amount.

    Maybe baseball is not broken?
    What would you say.....ya do here?

  23. #28
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Venice
    Posts
    33,292

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Pretty much every FA signing so far has exceeded the predictions in dollar amount.

    Maybe baseball is not broken?
    It’s only a few teams doing the signings, however. It seems the teams that have big TV deals and don’t rely on ticket sales as much, are the ones doing the signings. Baseball still seems to be broken, but just not much differently than before Covid.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

  24. #29
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    20,210

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    It’s only a few teams doing the signings, however. It seems the teams that have big TV deals and don’t rely on ticket sales as much, are the ones doing the signings. Baseball still seems to be broken, but just not much differently than before Covid.
    Maybe, the Royals and White Sox are two of the teams throwing those contracts out there, though. I have a feeling next week is going to be lit.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

  25. #30
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Venice
    Posts
    33,292

    Re: If Owners Don’t Want Their Best Players, What’s the Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Maybe, the Royals and White Sox are two of the teams throwing those contracts out there, though. I have a feeling next week is going to be lit.
    I hope you’re right and it includes the Reds signing a SS and some relievers.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator