Rumor: Yankees interested in trading for Castillo.

[WrongVerb]

Chapman trade = nothing in return. *Then Chapman traded to our rival for an elite prospect where he helps our rival win a World Series only to then sign back with the Yankees. They practically rented him to the Cubs for a few months for Gleyber.

Dodgers trade = Bailey contract off the books, Puig brings much needed energy to the franchise and is then packaged to Cleveland as part of the deal to give us what was one of the best SP seasons in Reds history resulting in the teams 1st Cy Young winner.

Yeah, Wood actually working out or Kemp providing anything at all would have been nice but this trade result still provided some value. They might as well have just given Chapman to the Yanks for free.

It does kinda hurt to see J.Gray and Downs listed at the top of the Dodgers and Red Sox prospect lists. But at the same time, unless your name is Wander Franco, if you're below AA, you shouldn't be untouchable.

[Rojo Rijo]

It does kinda hurt to see J.Gray and Downs listed at the top of the Dodgers and Red Sox prospect lists. But at the same time, unless your name is Wander Franco, if you're below AA, you shouldn't be untouchable.

Yep, I'm not going to get too worked up about Gray and Downs until one of them gets to the show and produces. Even then I won't be able to convince myself that if they'd stayed in the Reds org. they would've been developed just as well.

[WrongVerb]

Yankees fans still trying to make Castillo to the Yanks for not Gleyber Torres amuses the hell out of me.

Adam King
@TheKingSource

I am still told the @Yankees and @Reds talks have not slowed down. Also that the @Cubs remain in talks with the #Yankees. Nothing new really...
9:42am · 19 Jan 2021

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Yep, I'm not going to get too worked up about Gray and Downs until one of them gets to the show and produces. Even then I won't be able to convince myself that if they'd stayed in the Reds org. they would've been developed just as well.

Same.

[Rolando]

They also traded one of the assets acquired for the clubs first Cy Young award (Bauer).

This is very true. I guess the point I was making is what a Chapman trade was bad I definitely don't think it was franchise changing. I do wish they would have done more to support Trevor Bauer and to make his special season on that could have lasted a long longer.

[757690]

Yep, I'm not going to get too worked up about Gray and Downs until one of them gets to the show and produces. Even then I won't be able to convince myself that if they'd stayed in the Reds org. they would've been developed just as well.

They both have strong trade value right now, and that is what was lost. It was a bad trade, especially when you realize that Bailey was actually a decent BOR starter in 2019.

[JFLegal]

This is very true. I guess the point I was making is what a Chapman trade was bad I definitely don't think it was franchise changing. I do wish they would have done more to support Trevor Bauer and to make his special season on that could have lasted a long longer.

let's say instead of trading chapman to the yankees for nothing, the reds didn't panic, and eventually traded chapman for torres (which is exactly what the yankees did 4 months after getting him from the reds).

right now the reds would have torres as their shortstop of the present and future. and whatever money they are planning on spending on a FA shortstop could be used to help re-sign trevor bauer. money toward signing bauer since just that money alone wouldn't be enough, of course, but it would certainly help a lot.

you don't think that would be franchise-changing (relatively-speaking)?

[Bruce Berenyi]

yes but they got rookie davis an important cog in the epic lore of reds arcana ,rookie davis fits right in with curt lyons and steve cooke

[bm1475]

They both have strong trade value right now, and that is what was lost. It was a bad trade, especially when you realize that Bailey was actually a decent BOR starter in 2019.

I don't care if he started throwing Cy Young-level ball, I was tired of the Homer Bailey experience, and I don't think I'm alone in saying that.

[RedTeamGo!]

Homer Bailey pitched 14 years in the majors and accumulated 5.7 career bWAR.

Not trying to make a point or anything, that’s just truly amazing.

Dude made nearly $100,000,000 being completely awful at his job. Well done, sir.

[Wonderful Monds]

Homer Bailey pitched 14 years in the majors and accumulated 5.7 career bWAR.

Not trying to make a point or anything, that’s just truly amazing.

Dude made nearly $100,000,000 being completely awful at his job. Well done, sir.

16.5 fWAR though. Fangraphs has his 2013 as a 4 win season alone. I’m guessing Bref docks him some credit for the Reds defense being really good most of his career.

[Bruce Berenyi]

he was a more productive pick than scott scudder or pat pacillo

[MikeS21]

let's say instead of trading chapman to the yankees for nothing, the reds didn't panic, and eventually traded chapman for torres (which is exactly what the yankees did 4 months after getting him from the reds).

right now the reds would have torres as their shortstop of the present and future. and whatever money they are planning on spending on a FA shortstop could be used to help re-sign trevor bauer. money toward signing bauer since just that money alone wouldn't be enough, of course, but it would certainly help a lot.

you don't think that would be franchise-changing (relatively-speaking)?

In a perfect world, I would agree 100%. But I think there is a whole lot more going on.

First of all, there is the whole inter-divisional trade thing, which may or may not have played a role. Maybe not, but it's still a possible obstacle between the Cubs and Reds.

Second, teams like the Cubs view the Reds differently than they view the the Yankees. Every team in baseball knew the Reds "had" to trade Chapman as part of some "rebuild." Small market teams are severely handicapped in that they cannot bluff other teams by "deciding" to keep or extend high-priced stars. The Reds had no intention of extending Chapman and everybody knew it. Call it panic if you want, but Chapman was already halfway out the door long before any domestic violence and firearm violation. The Reds had very little leverage beforehand, and had absolutely no leverage by the time Chapman's antics became public knowledge.

The Yankees had no such constraints and therefore could afford to be "wooed" by the Cubs to let Chapman go. All the Yankees needed to do was tell Theo that "We'll just hang on to Chapman until the end of the year. It will give us time to work out an extension." The Yankees had leverage to trade or not trade Chapman.

The Reds, the Pirates, and other small market teams will NEVER have that kind of leverage. Even when they have solid, credible players, they will never be able to leverage them for top tier talent because they will always be perceived as "must unload." The clock is always ticking on FA and escalating salaries for these smaller market teams. And closer to FA the teams get, the less leverage for top tier quality talent becomes. And the more antsy small market teams become to get some value out of their star player. Large market teams are always going to have the leverage because they don't "have" to trade any one.

I don't think Theo would have offered Torres to the Reds for Chapman under any circumstances. He knew the Reds "had" to trade Chapman, as did the Yankees, and waiting until the trade deadline would only make the Reds more antsy to unload him.

This whole Castillo/Torres discussion is a prime example. Even as the Reds "announce" that Castillo is going nowhere this year, the Yankees know that is is hallow threat. Sometime within the next couple seasons, everybody knows that the Reds are going to be confronted with the reality that they can't afford to keep Castillo. And we will be bellyaching because another quality player is shipped off for pittance return.

[CaiGuy]

I don't care if he started throwing Cy Young-level ball, I was tired of the Homer Bailey experience, and I don't think I'm alone in saying that.

I was all about the trade at the time. I thought Puig/Wood/Kemp would really help the team in 2019. I was, of course, wrong...but the trade doesn't grind my gears like it does some others.

I don't really consider booting Bailey a benefit, though. In retrospect, they could have just cut him and moved on without sending any talent away.

[Revering4Blue]

I'd do the Dodgers trade again knowing what we know now.

Yup.

That December '18 trade was an acknowledgement of a bad/failed organizational plan, and the need to accelerate the process of adding actual productive MLB players to the roster.

[Revering4Blue]

I was all about the trade at the time. I thought Puig/Wood/Kemp would really help the team in 2019. I was, of course, wrong...but the trade doesn't grind my gears like it does some others.

I don't really consider booting Bailey a benefit, though. In retrospect, they could have just cut him and moved on without sending any talent away.

Simply cutting Bailey would not have freed up enough $$$, and would have seriously hampered efforts to add major league talent to the Reds roster for '19.

Moral of this story: No matter the state of a rebuild, do NOT allow four calendar years (Dec '14 -Dec "18) to pass without adding actual starting caliber MLB talent. For as much as the Astros were hammered for tanking, the Astros began adding MLB talent after their '13 season - Their rebuild began after the '11 deadline for reference.