Votto 2021 Thread

[M2]

There's a weird, and not uncommon, variant of Reds fans who seem to despise both Joey Votto and Barry Larkin. Like, the worst thing you can be is a HOF player who spends your whole career with the franchise.

[JCM11]

I want to say that it's unrealistic to expect Joey to do this again next year, but then I see that he had a 1.037 OPS in the last month with only a .222 BAbip. So who knows maybe 2022 will be an ever better year.

[westofyou]

I want to say that it's unrealistic to expect Joey to do this again next year, but then I see that he had a 1.037 OPS in the last month with only a .222 BAbip. So who knows maybe 2022 will be an ever better year.

It is

I'll take Ted William's age 39 season though .328/.458/.584

[JFLegal]

some might disagree, but i do not think votto was an 100% lock to make the HOF entering this season.

he's now 100% a lock.

and he probably would have made it anyway, i'm just saying i don't think he was a lock entering 2021. but he has removed all doubt.

[BRM13]

There's a weird, and not uncommon, variant of Reds fans who seem to despise both Joey Votto and Barry Larkin. Like, the worst thing you can be is a HOF player who spends your whole career with the franchise.

I know a guy who played D1 college baseball who hated Barry Larkin with a passion. Considering how objectively good Larkin was, I could never understand how a guy who played at a decently high level couldn't appreciate him. One day while Larkin was still playing I asked him point blank what his problem with Larkin was. "Nobody should make that much money playing baseball." Pure jealousy, basically.

Over the years it seems that the ire is pretty much always directed at the highest paid player. This fits a lot of the Griffey haters, too, IMO. KGJ wanted to be here and took less money (than he'd have made in NY, LA, etc.) to do it, and people still resented him.

[dfs]

some might disagree, but i do not think votto was an 100% lock to make the HOF entering this season.

he's now 100% a lock.

and he probably would have made it anyway, i'm just saying i don't think he was a lock entering 2021. but he has removed all doubt.

I hope you're right. I don't believe this to be the case. It won't surprise me at all if he doesn't get in.

Even in his MVP year, he probably wasn't the best firstbaseman in his division.
I don't have an issue with Votto being in the hof, but then I would have an unapologetically big hall of fame.
Predicting what the voters will do isn't always straightforward.
He is/was a unique generational talent that I have very much enjoyed watching.

[RedsBaron]

I think Votto probably is now a lock to make the HOF.
Bill James created a number of methods to judge how likely a player is to making the HOF. Votto's Hall of Fame Monitor score is 97, just under the 100 score of the average member of the HOF. The HOF Monitor score does not measure if a player should be inducted; instead it compares what a player has done in his career compared to the average member of the HOF. By that standard Votto is very close, and he could still nudge his HOF Monitor score higher.
On the Black Ink test, measuring how often a player lead his league in stats which have mattered to HOF voters, Votto doesn't score as well, with a 17 score to the 27 of the average member of the HOF. However, on the Gray Ink test, measuring how often a player was among league leaders, his 158 score exceeds the 144 score of the average HOF member.
Taking Votto's seven peak seasons for WAR, he has a score of 46.9, more than the 42.7 score of the average first baseman in the HOF. He ranks 9th all time among first basemen in that category, outranking a bunch of Hall of Famers. Votto is 12th all time among first basemen with a JAWS score of 55.7, better than the 54.8 JAWS score of the average first basemen in the HOF. JAWS was developed by Jay Jaffe and takes a player's career WAR average and his seven year peak WAR seasons.
With regard to career WAR, Votto has 64.4 WAR compared to the 66.9 WAR score of the average first basemen in the HOF. Votto's career WAR is 15th all time for first basemen, just behind Willie McCovey's 64.5. Votto's 64.4 career WAR outranks HOF first basemen Jake Beckley, Harmon Killebrew, Bill Terry, Hank Greenberg, George Sisler, Tony Perez, Orlando Cepeda, Frank Chance, Jim Bottomley and High Pockets Kelly.
One statistic argument Votto has for HOF induction probably won't last much longer. He is one of the few players in MLB history with a line of .300/.400/.500 , i.e., a career batting average over .300, a career on base percentage over .400, and a career slugging average over .500. I'd love to see Votto repeat his 2021 season in 2022, but if he does his career batting average will dip from .302 to .299.
I think the changing HOF electorate, with more voters who appreciate advanced statistical analysis, will help get Votto inducted.

[westofyou]

I know a guy who played D1 college baseball who hated Barry Larkin with a passion. Considering how objectively good Larkin was, I could never understand how a guy who played at a decently high level couldn't appreciate him. One day while Larkin was still playing I asked him point blank what his problem with Larkin was. "Nobody should make that much money playing baseball." Pure jealousy, basically.

Over the years it seems that the ire is pretty much always directed at the highest paid player. This fits a lot of the Griffey haters, too, IMO. KGJ wanted to be here and took less money (than he'd have made in NY, LA, etc.) to do it, and people still resented him.

I left Cincinnati years ago and I can attest that that archetype existed in the past too, Johnny Bench too much money said my friends father, now he hates Votto, before it was Griffey.

[westofyou]

https://theathletic.com/2754066/2021...ek-in-baseball

And there were those who did not like that, those who felt like Votto was not doing his job because he wasn’t driving in runs. Walks are boring. Walks are invisible. People don’t come to the ballpark to watch superior hitters like Votto walk; they come to the ballpark to watch superior hitters like Votto drive in runs. And so, the conversation about Votto’s greatness was pointed and contentious. I can recall two particularly heated arguments I had with Cincinnati fans who just couldn’t understand why I loved Joey Votto so much.

In my view, Votto was a Hall of Fame before this season even began. As I mentioned in last week’s JWIB, he’s led the league in on-base percentage seven times … that’s a Hall of Famer in my book, no questions asked — and then you throw in the MVP, the Gold Glove, the 300-plus homers and so on.

But I think Votto might have been a Hall of Fame fight, not unlike Larry Walker, had he not reminded everyone of his greatness this season. There were just too many people who did not appreciate how just good he was when he was the purest of pure hitters, a walk-machine who never popped out and never gave in. But I think 2021 has pushed him over the top in people’s minds. Votto has found one more way to adjust, and he’s given even the RBI purists something to love.

[JFLegal]

https://theathletic.com/2754066/2021...ek-in-baseball

whoever wrote this reads this board 100%^^^

[westofyou]

whoever wrote this reads this board 100%^^^

Yeah no, Joe writes too much to read here. Just got his new book yesterday

Joe was the Post beat writer in the mid nineties

[KeefeCato]

Rose.

Lol

[GAC]

I know a guy who played D1 college baseball who hated Barry Larkin with a passion. Considering how objectively good Larkin was, I could never understand how a guy who played at a decently high level couldn't appreciate him. One day while Larkin was still playing I asked him point blank what his problem with Larkin was. "Nobody should make that much money playing baseball." Pure jealousy, basically.

Over the years it seems that the ire is pretty much always directed at the highest paid player. This fits a lot of the Griffey haters, too, IMO. KGJ wanted to be here and took less money (than he'd have made in NY, LA, etc.) to do it, and people still resented him.

When you accept, and maybe expect, to be put on that pedestal, you have to accept all the good AND bad that goes with it. And when you're "king of the hill" there's always those trying to knock you off your perch. IMO, the Jr "haters" (which I am not) are all a depressed, disappointed, and angry lot because Jr was paid a helluva lot of money, and he didn't live up to his end of the bargain which was to lead the Reds to the Promised Land. And his signing also financially strapped the organization from signing talent. No one, including Jr, couldn't anticipate or expect, his frequent visits to the DL that "marred" the twilight years of his career by abusing his body while being one of the premier CFers while in Seattle.

Larkin? I think a lot of fans opinion of Barry sored somewhat in the late 90's when his relationship with the organization was eroding as the "rebuilding" Reds were trading away veteran players, Larkin feels they aren't going to contend for years, and asks to be traded. As well as some of his other antics at that time. I personally let it go in one ear and out the other. I loved Larkin the ballplayer. Not so much the announcer, nor candidate for Reds manager. He acts sometimes like he's entitled to the job, maybe the next in line - and because why? Because he's an ex-Red and HOF SS? How many ex-Red players, who've had the opportunity to manager the Reds, have led the team to the post-season, World Series?

[TRF]

I've never felt any resentment towards a player for making money.

I have, on occasion, perhaps mentioned spending X amount of money on a pitcher with a degenerative knee injury was colossally stupid.

But I don't resent Eric Milton for taking the cash.

[GAC]

But I don't resent Eric Milton for taking the cash.

Nope. But I'd fire the person that did the scouting report and gave the rcommendation.

But if my employer came up to me and said we're gonna give you a $20/Hr raise I wouldn't protest that I didn't deserve it.