Wade Miley #4

[757690]

I like the Bedrosian signing. The point is, the Reds could have had Bedrosian and Bradley and bumped a wildcard out of the bullpen.
Dolittle? Hard to say if that is a good signing or not. Worth the risk, but he has injury issues. I hope he pans out, but given a choice right now, I'd rather have Bradley than Dolittle.

The Reds clearly decided that they could not afford Bradley. I dislike this argument because I think they can afford many players if they choose to.

Regardless, I don’t think there is much difference between Bradley and any of guys who will be used as relievers by the Reds this season. Sure it would be nice to have more options, but I don’t think he’s a better option.

[REDREAD]

My argument is that Bradley is one of the last guys out of the pen, a middle reliever. That is how the Reds used him last year, and how they likely were going to use him this year.

The fact that he only pitched 7 innings for the Reds last year should be a telling sign. The Reds were not high on him, and did not see him as a late inning, high leverage reliever. If they did, he would have pitched more often, and in higher leverage situations.

If the Reds didn't see Bradley as a good arm, why did they trade for him then?
He had injury issues last year, that's why he only pitched 7 innings.
If the Reds anticipated injury issues from him in 2021, and he ends up having injury issues.. then yes, they made the right
call to cut him loose. I even said that in the non-tender thread.
But we are assuming everyone is healthy in this discussion. You are reaching man..
Do you seriously think that Hoffman or whoever the last guy in the pen is will be better than Bradley?

Bradley was cut because the Reds were too cheap to pay him. Let's just admit that instead of trying to rationalize that
Reds' ownership is trying to put a quality product on the field for 2021. I said this in the nontender thread.. the Reds are starting another teardown, some people are STILL in denial about it. They are sinking, they are going to have to add money after 2021 to reverse that, and I kind of doubt that they do (but it's possible)

[757690]

Then the Reds have no special relievers, right?
That counters the argument that the Reds' pen will be just fine.
You are the one that used career FIP as the criteria to evaluate relievers. I included the starters for comparison.
You say that 3.65 career FIP is nothing special, yet it's better than any established pitcher on our staff. (Although a virtual tie with Gray).. so logically, that means Gray and Castillo are nothing special too?

Why is FIP only valid for relievers and not starters? Explain please.
Even if you toss out the starters on the list I gave, Bradley clearly has a better FIP than any reliever we have. That's the metric you chose -- I wasn't the one that chose it.

Starters have to pitch 5+ innings, go through the lineup multiple time, so they need to reserve both strength and variety of pitches throughout the game. A reliever comes in, faces a few batters, throwsas hard as he can, uses nothing but his best pitches and then leaves.

It is wildly harder to be a starter than a reliever. Starter ERA’s and FIP have always been around a run higher than relievers. This is baseball 101 and has been true since the game was invented.

As for the Reds relievers this year, they don’t have any special relievers. That has nothing to do with this discussion.

[MoneyInTheBank]

I see a difference between an injured Bedrosian who averaged 6.8 Ks and a healthy Bradley who averaged 10.1 with Arizona and fell off as a very lightly used Red. And I don’t think it’s lazy to refer to MLB’s perception of these guys in FA market, as reflected by their off-season deals.

The inconvenient fact is that Reds took on much additional risk with their pen selections this year. I believe fans of most teams would be very concerned. Reds fans not so much, we’re kind of used to this.

Edit: Bradley did have a late injury last season, see my post below.

Bedrosian had a groin strain, it's not as if his shoulder blew up. He should be perfectly recovered from that injury.

I'm saying it's lazy because rather than defending why you are so much lower on Bedrosian than Bradley, it's hiding behind "the market"

They both pitched well with their respective teams despite low K rates and injury but only one of them gets a pass

Did they take more risk? Maybe? "Non-special" relievers are used up and discarded. I think that's the whole crux. You see Bradley as special, I don't. I'll agree to disagree on that

[MoneyInTheBank]

I like the Bedrosian signing. The point is, the Reds could have had Bedrosian and Bradley and bumped a wildcard out of the bullpen.
Dolittle? Hard to say if that is a good signing or not. Worth the risk, but he has injury issues. I hope he pans out, but given a choice right now, I'd rather have Bradley than Dolittle.

I've said repeatedly Bradley is the best pitcher of the 3 (but not by a wide margin) but these decisions aren't made in a vacuum. If you are going to cut payroll, the middle of the bullpen is where you do it. None of us would have been happy if they kept Bradley to bump the last wildcard out of the 'pen but traded Suarez to meet budget.

[REDREAD]

I've said repeatedly Bradley is the best pitcher of the 3 (but not by a wide margin) but these decisions aren't made in a vacuum. If you are going to cut payroll, the middle of the bullpen is where you do it. None of us would have been happy if they kept Bradley to bump the last wildcard out of the 'pen but traded Suarez to meet budget.

Yep, Krall was ordered to cut payroll, no doubt about it. He was going to have to cut into some "meat" in order to make budget, or do a creative salary dump.. like trade Castanallos for an expensive SS.. I'm not criticizing him for not doing that, that was just an example.

It's more of a criticism on ownership, who basically tanked 5 years, started to add talent in 2019, were "all in" for 2020 and then went back to not caring and letting their brand rot.

[Griffey012]

I've said repeatedly Bradley is the best pitcher of the 3 (but not by a wide margin) but these decisions aren't made in a vacuum. If you are going to cut payroll, the middle of the bullpen is where you do it. None of us would have been happy if they kept Bradley to bump the last wildcard out of the 'pen but traded Suarez to meet budget.

This is where I am at. I'd rather have Bradley as an option in the pen than not have him. But if the Reds ownership was forcing Krall and company to shed $15M or whatever from the payroll, Bradley was an obvious non-tender.

It also won't surprise me if either Bedrosian or Doolittle perform just as well as Bradley though.

[REDREAD]

As for the Reds relievers this year, they don’t have any special relievers. That has nothing to do with this discussion.

That's the entire point. The Reds bullpen is not very good. Bradley would have been useful to keep. If he was still here, he'd arguably be the best reliever they have, or at least top 3 or 4.

If Castillo or Gray were a bullpen guy and kept their starter "rate" stats, they would be very effective, despite their FIP over 3.65 That's the second point. A 3.65 FIP is a good pitcher, starter or reliever. Sure, an under 3 FIP is better (and dominating) but that has nothing to do with Bradley or the Reds pen. Bradley was not a fungible reliever as you claimed. The Reds don't have a room full of guys that are just as good. Let's check in at the all star break, if Bradley is healthy, he's will have outperformed the worst guys at the end of the Reds pen. I can't make it any more clear.

1. Bradley would have been an asset in the Reds 2021 bullpen if kept.
2. Bradley (if healthy) is better than the guy that replaced him (the last guy in the Reds pen)

Nothing you have said has refuted that.

Yea, we all know that Bradley was cut due to $$$.. Why can't you admit that, instead of pretending that the Reds would have no use for Bradley if he was still around.. I don't get the blind defense of every move the Reds make by some people here.

[Ron Madden]

You have lost the argument, so suddenly this is a bad thread. Typical Redszone.
You are free to stop discussing it and free to stop checking this thread.

Nobody has won or lost the debate until we see the results of the 2021 season.

Some see Bradley as some kinda star bullpen pitcher. I don't.

Put me on ingnore

[757690]

That's the entire point. The Reds bullpen is not very good. Bradley would have been useful to keep. If he was still here, he'd arguably be the best reliever they have, or at least top 3 or 4.

If Castillo or Gray were a bullpen guy and kept their starter "rate" stats, they would be very effective, despite their FIP over 3.65 That's the second point. A 3.65 FIP is a good pitcher, starter or reliever. Sure, an under 3 FIP is better (and dominating) but that has nothing to do with Bradley or the Reds pen. Bradley was not a fungible reliever as you claimed. The Reds don't have a room full of guys that are just as good. Let's check in at the all star break, if Bradley is healthy, he's will have outperformed the worst guys at the end of the Reds pen. I can't make it any more clear.

1. Bradley would have been an asset in the Reds 2021 bullpen if kept.
2. Bradley (if healthy) is better than the guy that replaced him (the last guy in the Reds pen)

Nothing you have said has refuted that.

Yea, we all know that Bradley was cut due to $$$.. Why can't you admit that, instead of pretending that the Reds would have no use for Bradley if he was still around.. I don't get the blind defense of every move the Reds make by some people here.

I disagree that Bradley would have been better than anyone else who pitches in the Reds pen this year. He would have been useful, but no more useful than anyone else that they use. He’s a decent reliever and the Reds have plenty of those this year.

I did admit that the reason why Bradley was cut was because of money. See post #211

If Gray or Castillo were relievers, their ERA and FIP’s would likely be below 2.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Yep, Krall was ordered to cut payroll, no doubt about it. He was going to have to cut into some "meat" in order to make budget, or do a creative salary dump.. like trade Castanallos for an expensive SS.. I'm not criticizing him for not doing that, that was just an example.

It's more of a criticism on ownership, who basically tanked 5 years, started to add talent in 2019, were "all in" for 2020 and then went back to not caring and letting their brand rot.

That's fair. It was definitely disappointing to see them spend like they had an endless budget only to make deep cuts in 2021

[mth123]

Bedrosian and Doolittle are reliable bullpen arms. As good as Bradley? Probably not but the gap is small

If doolittle comes back and Bedrosian makes the next step, I would agree. Bradley just needs to keep being what he's been. If all three pitch like their most recent seasons, Bradley is in a tier or two above those guys and Iglesias is better than Bradley. The repladements might end up working out, but if these pitchers stay on their same arc, its been a massive downgrade IMO. Noe Ramirez would be on the bubble for me.

[Kc61]

Bedrosian had a groin strain, it's not as if his shoulder blew up. He should be perfectly recovered from that injury.

I'm saying it's lazy because rather than defending why you are so much lower on Bedrosian than Bradley, it's hiding behind "the market"

They both pitched well with their respective teams despite low K rates and injury but only one of them gets a pass

Did they take more risk? Maybe? "Non-special" relievers are used up and discarded. I think that's the whole crux. You see Bradley as special, I don't. I'll agree to disagree on that

Only further response is on the marketplace.

The people making FA decisions have more information than fans, and have professionals to analyze performance, health, statistics.

While their decisions aren’t guarantees, I think it’s perfectly fair to rely on them as meaningful.

In particular, the Phils current pitching coach is Cotham, who knows Bradley from the Reds. By all accounts, the Reds regard Cotham highly. So I give some deference to that team’s judgment that Bradley is a valuable pitcher.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Only further response is on the marketplace.

The people making FA decisions have more information than fans, and have professionals to analyze performance, health, statistics.

While their decisions aren’t guarantees, I think it’s perfectly fair to rely on them as meaningful.

In particular, the Phils current pitching coach is Cotham, who knows Bradley from the Reds. By all accounts, the Reds regard Cotham highly. So I give some deference to that team’s judgment that Bradley is a valuable pitcher.

Then just hand the trophy to the highest payroll, they must have accumulated the best players

[Kc61]

Then just hand the trophy to the highest payroll, they must have accumulated the best players

Last season they did.