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Thread: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

  1. #46
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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Take out the stats of the guys who won’t make the team or see very little action at the MLB level and I am guessing the numbers look much better. And the record is beyond meaningless.
    That is true. But the last what 5 years of bad to horrible starts even with Bell now. Always unprepared or slow to get going. Especially the pitching. It’s what finally got Price fired because it was so bad. 1988 Orioles or 1982 Astros bad.

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    That is true. But the last what 5 years of bad to horrible starts even with Bell now. Always unprepared or slow to get going. Especially the pitching. It’s what finally got Price fired because it was so bad. 1988 Orioles or 1982 Astros bad.
    Exactly. Too much time sorting out the scrubs and not enough time getting the regulars ready to play. I remember when starting pitchers would stretch out to 7 innings on their second to the last start and then cut back to five to save some energy in the last one. They'd be ready to go on day 1. Now 4 innings might be the most they get and relievers would have one 3 innings or so outing to stretch out and then a few back to back days outings. None of that happens anymore. By the last week, the roster should be down to less than 30 guys and the guys who would be on the team should be getting most of the PT. They aren't ready to play because they spend to much PT on guys who have little chance to ever make the roster.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Exactly. Too much time sorting out the scrubs and not enough time getting the regulars ready to play. I remember when starting pitchers would stretch out to 7 innings on their second to the last start and then cut back to five to save some energy in the last one. They'd be ready to go on day 1. Now 4 innings might be the most they get and relievers would have one 3 innings or so outing to stretch out and then a few back to back days outings. None of that happens anymore. By the last week, the roster should be down to less than 30 guys and the guys who would be on the team should be getting most of the PT. They aren't ready to play because they spend to much PT on guys who have little chance to ever make the roster.
    The way the Reds are doing it this year, and the last few years, is the way they and every other team has been doing it for decades. Go look at the boxscore today, I mean the White Sox barely played any regulars today. Look at the boxscores of other teams now or any year. I have been to dozens and dozens of spring trainings and this is how it’s always been. The only difference is that pitchers did get stretched out longer, but that was because they pitched deeper into games back then. Now they aren’t allowed to go through the lineup a third time, so no need to stretch them out more than 5 innings.

    I agree that the Reds have been unprepared since Dusty left, but that has little to do withhold plays when during spring training. Both Bell and Price never cared much for practice or fundamentals. They are of the belief that players already know how to play the game and extra practice and coaching is a waste of time. And that has proven to be false year after year, as the Reds continue to be lousy at fundamentals and never seemed prepared.
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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Reds ST record stinks because the ST pitching has been terrible.

    Part of it is injuries. Part of it is refusal to spend on better pitchers. Team defense may not have helped.

    ST therefore becomes a pitching tryout camp with a 6 ERA.

    Will it carry over to the regular season? Who knows. But it’s hard to believe we’ll see a staff nearly as good as last year’s. The Reds’ hitters better be ready to score a bunch of runs.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-25-2021 at 11:11 PM.

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Every year, I get caught up in spring training battles and stats, and then I watch the first series of the regular season, and I immediately remember that a regular season game is nothing like a spring training game and what happened in spring training is meaningless.

    In a regular season game, only the best players play, the best pitchers pitch, hitters and pitchers battle in every pitch, every play matters, the manager makes every move with the sole purpose of winning the game, and every player is driven to beat the opponent. None of those things happen in a spring game.

    I am positive that all the spring anxiety will dissapate once we start watching games that count.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post

    In a regular season game, only the best players play, the best pitchers pitch, hitters and pitchers battle in every pitch, every play matters, the manager makes every move with the sole purpose of winning the game, and every player is driven to beat the opponent. None of those things happen in a spring game.

    .
    In a regular season game, especially managed by David Bell, lots of players play. In the last full MLB regular season, 2019, Reds used 47 different players. 23 position men and 24 pitchers (Lorenzen counted as a pitcher).

    Where did all those players come from? Mostly the same group that performed in spring.

    Is ST determinative? Certainly not. But it would be good to see performances commensurate with winning baseball.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-26-2021 at 12:51 AM.

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    In a regular season game, especially managed by David Bell, lots of players play. In the last full MLB regular season, 2019, Reds used 47 different players. 24 position men and 23 pitchers.

    Where did all those players come from? Mostly the same group that performed in spring.

    Is ST determinative? Certainly not. But it would be good to see performances commensurate with winning baseball at the big league level.
    In 2019, the Reds had 15 position players get 88% of the non pitcher PA’s. 10 pitchers pitched 80% of the team’s innings.

    As I said, the best players played the vast majority of the time.

    I want players in spring training not focused on stats or winning. I want them focused on getting ready for when the games actually count.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    In 2019, the Reds had 15 position players get 88% of the non pitcher PA’s. 10 pitchers pitched 80% of the team’s innings.

    As I said, the best players played the vast majority of the time.

    I want players in spring training not focused on stats or winning. I want them focused on getting ready for when the games actually count.
    Teams can’t hide their rosters over a 162 game season. Look at 2021. Immediately, on OD, the rotation will have injuries, Gray, Lorenzen, maybe Miley. Immediately guys like Hoffman and DeLeon will have prominent roles. Just look at their spring numbers.

    You can’t fluff it off that easily, you can’t deny this performance. Nobody knows the future, seasons have twists and turns. But it’s a showing that raises doubts about this team’s depth, especially pitching beyond the few top guys.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-26-2021 at 01:28 AM.

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Teams can’t hide their rosters over a 162 game season. Look at this season, 2021. On OD the rotation will have injuries, Gray, Lorenzen, maybe Miley. Immediately guys like Hoffman and DeLeon will have prominent roles. Just look at their spring numbers.

    You just can’t fluff it off that easily, you can’t deny this performance. It may not hold up, long seasons have twists and turns. But it’s the kind of showing that raises doubts about this team’s depth, especially pitching, beyond the very few top guys.
    Teams do need many good players, of course. But in spring training, a high percentage of the PA’s and innings come from players who will not play in the majors that year or ever.

    This spring training alone, 36 position players had PA’s for the Reds, and 37 pitchers pitched for them. In less than a month’s worth of game. Many of them from the minor league camp. More importantly, many players who are in camp just trying to get into shape, work on timing, work on pitches, etc..

    It is practice, none of it counts, and the players and coaches know that.

    As I said at the beginning. If you are worried about depth, then focus on the stats of the players who will play significantly in the majors this season for the Reds. I think you will find that there isn’t much to worry about.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769023

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    Re: 3-25-21 Reds vs White Sox 4:05pm

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Teams do need many good players, of course. But in spring training, a high percentage of the PA’s and innings come from players who will not play in the majors that year or ever.

    This spring training alone, 36 position players had PA’s for the Reds, and 37 pitchers pitched for them. In less than a month’s worth of game. Many of them from the minor league camp. More importantly, many players who are in camp just trying to get into shape, work on timing, work on pitches, etc..

    It is practice, none of it counts, and the players and coaches know that.

    As I said at the beginning. If you are worried about depth, then focus on the stats of the players who will play significantly in the majors this season for the Reds. I think you will find that there isn’t much to worry about.
    Your own post said in 2019 fifteen Reds position players played most of the time. That’s about double the starting unit. Beyond top ten pitchers, others threw 334 innings. Teams can’t predict with certainty where their needs will be, but most teams must go deep over 162 games. Reds already have a number of injuries affecting OD.

    The spring team pitching numbers I’m raising are terrible, not just normal variation, and I’m not sure they are so easily dismissed.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-26-2021 at 08:11 AM.


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