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Thread: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    But if they still had Iglesias, he'd be the closer and the non-save thing would be a non issue. Garrett could go back to being a match-up lefty which is why his stats are as good as they are and Sims could be the main set-up guy. It would absolutey make a difference. The team not only lost Iglesias and Bradley but they converted Garrett from a strength to a question mark by making those deals. Amir Garrett is yet another guy playing out of position on this team. He's not a closer. He a situational reliever who is really good at certain situations, but those aren't the situations he's used in now Simply making Sims the closer and using Garrett the way he's always been used would settle things a lot IMO. Right now, Antone is needed to replace Sims (who would be replacing Iglesias) and Lorenzen's innings. If Deleon, Fulmer, Perez or Doolittle step up ( I have no hope for Romano), I might see a path to taking Antone out of the pen. Right now, he's the only "strength" they have out there.
    Then name Doolittle the closer and use Garrett as a match-up lefty. As you alluded to, this is less of a "need Iglesias" problem and more of a "miscast Garrett" problem


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  3. #32
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Probably so but as a big innings eater reliever i think he's more valuable because he can play in more games

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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerTime View Post
    We are way over thinking this. I’ve seen some say he can be as good as Sonny Gray. So you can add another Sonny Gray to the rotation. Do you do it or not? Figure out the bullpen along the way.
    Last season relievers pitched 44.5% of all MLB innings. That's kind of a lot to figure out "along the way."

    The Reds have done better than that percentage of late, but still, the pen covers too many innings to play it by ear.

    Antone in the pen this year is a matter of need. Next year, maybe the need will shift and Antone will start with some new dynamic arms in the pen. That could very well be the Reds' plan.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-18-2021 at 11:14 AM.

  5. #34
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    Then name Doolittle the closer and use Garrett as a match-up lefty. As you alluded to, this is less of a "need Iglesias" problem and more of a "miscast Garrett" problem
    Not convinced he's up to the job. Guys are miscast because they don't have the guys they need for the jobs they have to fill. I agree with a lot of the complaints people have about Iglesias, and on the surface moving his contract was an OK move. Not replacing him means everyone moves up a notch and the pen is thinner as a result. They also thinned it by moving Bradley and planning on Lorenzen to start. The plan was to backfill on the cheap and the key to that was Antone filling the void. move him to the rotation, then what? I don't share teh general opinion that you can just find anybody to pitch in relief. If you could, there wouldn't be so many awful pitchers in bullpens throughout baseball. This pen doesn't need one less Antone, it needs two more of him. Move him to the rotation and watch the implosion IMO.
    Last edited by mth123; 04-18-2021 at 12:49 PM.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    He's been quite good, but he's yet to show he be this effective for more than 5 innings at the major league level. I certainly hope he gets the chance to show he can, but let's not start engraving his name on the Cy Young award just yet.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  8. #36
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Not convinced he's up to the job. Guys are miscast because they don't have the guys they need for the jobs they have to fill. I agree with a lot of the complaints people have about Iglesias, and on the surface moving his contract was an OK move. Not replacing him means everyone moves up a notch and the pen is thinner as a result. They also thinned it by moving Bradley and planning on Lorenzen to start. The plan was to backfill on the cheap and the key to that was Antone filling the void. move him to the rotation, then what? I don't share teh general opinion that you can just find anybody to pitch in relief. If you could, there wouldn't be so many awful pitchers in bullpens throughout baseball. This pen doesn't need one less Antone, it needs two more of him. Move him to the rotation and watch the implosion IMO.
    We've gone down a weird rabbit hole here distracting from my original point. I'm not advocating for Antone to the rotation so maybe I just wasn't clear. My point was that, up to this point, April 18th, 2021, this bullpen would not be appreciably better with Iglesias and Bradley in it (especially not $15M better). Then you complained about the deployment of Garrett. I offered a solution to that.

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    Ron Madden (04-18-2021)

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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0-2 Count View Post
    If he starts, he helps us win 1 out of every 5 games. If he continues in the role he has now he can help us win 2 out of every 5 games. Think about that for a moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by NC-Red View Post
    Probably so but as a big innings eater reliever i think he's more valuable because he can play in more games
    If people really believe this thinking, then why wouldn't you move Castillo and Gray to the bullpen?

    You extract the most value from a pitcher by pitching them the most innings. It's not complicated.

    The game's evolving, but starting pitchers are still significantly more valuable than relief arms. There's a reason for that, and it's because having guys that can go through an order multiple times and control a game are still rare. I understand the value in selecting high-leverage situations for Antone's relief work, but even then that likely doesn't outdo the damage he can do as an every fifth day starter.

    Hard to say if Antone's as dominant as we hope he is, but I'll forever be in support of making your best pitchers starters.

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    *BaseClogger* (04-19-2021),HammerTime (04-18-2021),herbdizzle (04-18-2021),Tony Cloninger (04-18-2021),Wonderful Monds (04-18-2021)

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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    If people really believe this thinking, then why wouldn't you move Castillo and Gray to the bullpen?

    You extract the most value from a pitcher by pitching them the most innings. It's not complicated.

    The game's evolving, but starting pitchers are still significantly more valuable than relief arms. There's a reason for that, and it's because having guys that can go through an order multiple times and control a game are still rare. I understand the value in selecting high-leverage situations for Antone's relief work, but even then that likely doesn't outdo the damage he can do as an every fifth day starter.

    Hard to say if Antone's as dominant as we hope he is, but I'll forever be in support of making your best pitchers starters.
    All this is fine, but it doesn’t address the main question. Can the Reds win with its current pen but minus Antone?

    Otherwise put, how does this bulllpen cover 40% of Reds’ innings successfully without Antone?

    If the Reds could find that solution, Antone would probably be starting. They can’t, at present.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-18-2021 at 04:17 PM.

  13. #39
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    All this is fine, but it doesn’t address the main question. Can the Reds win with its current pen but minus Antone?

    Otherwise put, how does this bulllpen cover 40% of Reds’ innings successfully without Antone?

    If the Reds could find that solution, Antone would probably be starting. They can’t, at present.
    I think you're coming at this wrong. It's about maximizing value. If you get more value out of Antone in the rotation, you move him to the rotation.

    There's probably good data out there on this, but salaries are probably as good a proxy as anything. Anyway, it's a simple as thinking how you get the most good innings out of a pitcher. That's starting. The downstream effect of good starters is less innings for relievers. Good starter Antone means there's less need for reliever Antone (or Sims or Doolittle or Garrett).

    Y'all are overthinking this.

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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    I think you're coming at this wrong. It's about maximizing value. If you get more value out of Antone in the rotation, you move him to the rotation.

    There's probably good data out there on this, but salaries are probably as good a proxy as anything. Anyway, it's a simple as thinking how you get the most good innings out of a pitcher. That's starting. The downstream effect of good starters is less innings for relievers. Good starter Antone means there's less need for reliever Antone (or Sims or Doolittle or Garrett).

    Y'all are overthinking this.
    Nope. Can’t favor an individual player at the expense of the team.

    The Reds team needs Antone in the pen now. The “downstream effect” of Antone starting would be minimal. He isn’t Jim Maloney covering 250 innings.

    Reds won all four games in which Antone has relieved. He’s a key bridge from starter to 8th/9th inning of competitive games. Someday, with a fuller pen, he’ll likely start. For now, the decision of Bell, Krall, and DJ seems appropriate.

    I’m quite sure they are not overthinking this.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-18-2021 at 06:53 PM.

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    Mitri (04-18-2021)

  17. #41
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Nope. Can’t favor an individual player at the expense of the team.

    The Reds team needs Antone in the pen now. The “downstream effect” of Antone starting would be minimal. He isn’t Jim Maloney covering 250 innings.

    Reds won all four games in which Antone has relieved. He’s a key bridge from starter to 8th/9th inning of competitive games. Someday, with a fuller pen, he’ll likely start. Now, the decision of Bell, Krall, and DJ seems appropriate.

    I’m quite sure they are not overthinking this.
    Moving Antone to the rotation would not be “favoring the player at the expense of the team”

    And I’m sure if they thought he could start, had the endurance and were sure his stuff would translate over to starting, they would be doing that right and wouldn’t be worrying about what would happen with the bullpen.

  18. #42
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Nope. Can’t favor an individual player at the expense of the team.

    The Reds team needs Antone in the pen now. The “downstream effect” of Antone starting would be minimal. He isn’t Jim Maloney covering 250 innings.

    Reds won all four games in which Antone has relieved. He’s a key bridge from starter to 8th/9th inning of competitive games. Someday, with a fuller pen, he’ll likely start. For now, the decision of Bell, Krall, and DJ seems appropriate.

    I’m quite sure they are not overthinking this.
    Yeah, he wouldn't throw 250 IP. He'd throw 160 IP. In the bullpen it's 100 IP, on the high end.

    Apply this same rationale to bats. Do you want the good batters collecting more PA or not?

  19. #43
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    Moving Antone to the rotation would not be “favoring the player at the expense of the team”

    And I’m sure if they thought he could start, had the endurance and were sure his stuff would translate over to starting, they would be doing that right and wouldn’t be worrying about what would happen with the bullpen.
    This is speculation, we can’t read the Reds’ minds. What we do know is that they are using Antone’s ability now to address a clear team need in the pen. They are putting that need first, and it’s an appropriate decision until Reds can find other ways to have a full and effective pen.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-18-2021 at 07:26 PM.

  20. #44
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Yeah, he wouldn't throw 250 IP. He'd throw 160 IP. In the bullpen it's 100 IP, on the high end.

    Apply this same rationale to bats. Do you want the good batters collecting more PA or not?
    IMO you don’t build a team just by counting innings or PAs of players. Timing and roles count. Five good starters may throw 160 -70 innings each - only to have a weak pen blow many of those games in the later innings.

    This year, Reds have a need in the pen and I see nothing wrong with using a starter-quality pitcher to help solve that problem. I think that summarizes my view.
    Last edited by Kc61; 04-18-2021 at 08:31 PM.

  21. #45
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    Re: Is Antone the Best Pitcher On the Staff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    IMO you don’t build a team just by counting innings or PAs of players. Timing and roles count. Five good starters may throw 160 -70 innings each - only to have a weak pen blow many of those games in the later innings.

    This year, Reds have a need in the pen and I see nothing wrong with using a starter-quality pitcher to help solve that problem. I think that summarizes my view.
    I mean that’s like saying Winker or Votto are our best hitters, so let’s keep them on the bench so we can pinch hit with them in the spot we need them most late in the game.

    But no one would ever argue that, because you always get your best hitters the most PAs they possibly can, just like you give your best pitchers the most innings they can possibly pitch.

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