Seriously?

[mth123]

I didn’t say a four man bullpen. I said four for the late innings group.

The guys generally called upon to cover the late innings in close or winning games.

I didn’t address the middle/bridge guys which I view as a different subject.

I think we agree, but IMO they have four guys who can't be used in winning games, maybe 5 if Garrett doesn't right the ship. So when they play well and have a chance to win for 8 t0 10 days in a row, the four 'good" guys won't be able to cover all of those important innings. They need 6 guys who can and only a couple of experiments. This pen is out of balance with too many lotto tickets and not enough reliability. It's the difference between going 8 and 2 during that hot streak instead of say 6 and 4 and that ends up being the difference in the standings at season's end.

[CarolinaRedleg]

The only guy Garrett should be above on the bullpen depth chart is Romano right now.

Personally, I think he is too amped up in this "closer" role. DJ came out, Garrett got control of his body and threw 2 good pitches for strikes, then he went back to flailing while trying to throw 100.

DeLeon, too. That guy's a gascan.

[Kc61]

I think we agree, but IMO they have four guys who can't be used in winning games, maybe 5 if Garrett doesn't right the ship. So when they play well and have a chance to win for 8 t0 10 days in a row, the four 'good" guys won't be able to cover all of those important innings. They need 6 guys who can and only a couple of experiments. This pen is out of balance with too many lotto tickets and not enough reliability. It's the difference between going 8 and 2 during that hot streak instead of say 6 and 4 and that ends up being the difference in the standings at season's end.

If I were organizing a pen for today’s game it would be: four late inning guys; three multi-inning middle guys; and a mop up to eat meaningless innings.

These aren’t rigid or exclusive categories. Just a basic structure.

Doolittle, Garrett, Sims and Antone can be a successful back-end group IMO. That takes us to the middle group, which is a different subject.

[757690]

IMO your list shows the lack of alternatives to Garrett in that spot. Nobody one would view as a close out guy.

Would agree that Fulmer has been ok, pitched to two batters last night, one HBP, one out. I guess that’s ok.

You don’t need a close out guy to protect a three run lead. Just someone who can throw strikes.

I do believe that this is mostly mental with Garrett. He’s never been lights out, but he’s been just terrible so far this season, in every appearance. He has no command or control of any of his pitches. When he does throw strikes, they are meatballs. That’s not what he was doing previously.

[RollyInRaleigh]

I’m sick of Garrett and his empty schtick. He’s a big mouth clown who can’t back it up. Move on to someone who actually can perform when it counts.


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[Kc61]

You don’t need a close out guy to protect a three run lead. Just someone who can throw strikes.

I do believe that this is mostly mental with Garrett. He’s never been lights out, but he’s been just terrible so far this season, in every appearance. He has no command or control of any of his pitches. When he does throw strikes, they are meatballs. That’s not what he was doing previously.

Someone who throws strikes would eliminate a couple of your candidates. I understand your point, but I don’t think the Garrett decision was bad given the alternatives. So we disagree on that. It obviously didn’t work out.

[mth123]

If I were organizing a pen for today’s game it would be: four late inning guys; three multi-inning middle guys; and a mop up to eat meaningless innings.

These aren’t rigid or exclusive categories. Just a basic structure.

Doolittle, Garrett, Sims and Antone can be a successful back-end group IMO. That takes us to the middle group, which is a different subject.

Right. but right now the four guys you named are the late guys and the middle guys. Too many mop-ups and not enough quality.

I've kind of moved into the mode that anything after the starter is for your good pitchers if the game is close (say within 4 runs). Since Starters only go 5, you need enough good pitchers to cover 4 innings multiple days in a row. This pen doesn't have that. They may be able to use Perez against 3 lefty bats in row or use Deleon against the bottom of the order once in a while, but generally those guys shouldn't pitch in close games and never Romano. Fulmer is the one I'd "promote" to more important innings, for now, but its still a small sample crapshoot.

[Old school 1983]

IMO your list shows the lack of alternatives to Garrett in that spot. Nobody one would view as a close out guy.

Would agree that Fulmer has been ok, pitched to two batters last night, one HBP, one out. I guess that’s ok.

Fulmer had pitched well all year. Dolittle had pitched well most of it. Antone could have stayed in the game. Perez likely gets 3 outs before giving up 3 runs. Romano as well. This was a poor coaching call at this juncture. Not a roster issue. The Reds have guys getting the job done. Use them.

[757690]

Someone who throws strikes would eliminate a couple of your candidates. I understand your point, but I don’t think the Garrett decision was bad given the alternatives. So we disagree on that. It obviously didn’t work out.

Look at Garrett’s game logs. It’s obvious that he never should have been considered an alternative. Maybe the Reds didn’t have any good options, but Garrett was a horrible option and it should have been obvious to anyone paying attention.

[coryfly]

Yes but Sims, Antone, Doolittle had all pitched earlier this evening.

Not sure it was so unreasonable to let Garrett go to it. Three run lead, AG had a margin for error, though small.

I think this argument is reasonable but to me it seems unreasonable to not have anyone up and ready in case he was bad again, since in his five previous outings he has been bad and he has always given up runs when pitching the ninth inning.


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[DocRed]

Amir Garrett is the reason the Reds lost tonight, not David Bell.

They both are but AG can't help it though if he keeps getting run out there with zero confidence, I can guarantee he is trying his best. This is more on Bell IMO. Same situation with David Hernandez....guy just doesn't learn.

[westofyou]

I think this argument is reasonable but to me it seems unreasonable to not have anyone up and ready in case he was bad again, since in his five previous outings he has been bad and he has always given up runs when pitching the ninth inning.


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Three run leads don’t usually vanish in the ninth.

Guys arms need to be rested, if he has a clean inning you just taxed guys arms (cue the damn David Bell posters)

Sidenote for the ones bringing politics into this, that’s chicken**** garbage

[Griffey012]

DeLeon, too. That guy's a gascan.

He's had 5 appearances for the Reds, 3 good and 2 duds. He's at least piling up the strikeouts. That is all more than Garrett can say.

Saturday he had a nice inning keeping the game 1-2 against cleveland. Tuesday he had. a nice inning in a 2-3 game. Last night was a dud. I'll give him a bit of slack considering it was his first back to back relief appearance and first relief appearance coming in middle of the inning.

[MoneyInTheBank]

I realize I'm stepping in it right now but I'm going to defend Amir Garrett for a minute...

He is going to turn this around. Should he be trying to turn it around from the closer's role? Probably not. His primary pitch (which is near elite) is his slider and said in his post-game interview he can't find his slider right now (and the stats reflect that). He's not running from it or pointing fingers. Much like Geno, he is being asked to take on more responsibility due to no fault of his own. Regardless of role, I think Amir will be back in our good graces by June

*Ducks*

[JFLegal]

when you have 5 guys in your bullpen no one else in baseball wanted, that's a big problem. and amir garrett is quickly putting himself on the list of "no one else in baseball wants you." ok, maybe the pirates.

*remembers 2019*

nevermind.