Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

[RedTeamGo!]

If either or both of Greene/Lodolo are coming up to rescue this dumpster fire of a bullpen, I feel like they'd get a heck of a lot more time than "2 inning stints twice a week".

They might get more time than they would in AAA.

Word-for-word what they said about Chapman and are now saying about Antone.

[TRF]

And before that he had 5 years of not being very good.

Either we believe in the Boddy system or we don't. The fact is the Reds kept Fulmer over Romano despite him starting to have some success. Since then they have gone through how many pitchers?

06/07/21 Cincinnati Reds sent RHP Hector Perez outright to Louisville Bats.
06/05/21 Cincinnati Reds recalled RHP Ashton Goudeau from Louisville Bats.
06/02/21 Cincinnati Reds activated RHP Michael Feliz from the 10-day injured list.
06/02/21 Cincinnati Reds optioned LHP Cionel Perez to Louisville Bats.
06/02/21 Cincinnati Reds designated RHP Hector Perez for assignment.
06/01/21 Cincinnati Reds placed RHP Michael Feliz on the 10-day injured list.
06/01/21 Cincinnati Reds recalled LHP Cionel Perez from Louisville Bats.
05/31/21 Cincinnati Reds activated LHP Wade Miley from the 10-day injured list.
05/31/21 Cincinnati Reds optioned LHP Cionel Perez to Louisville Bats.
05/31/21 Cincinnati Reds signed free agent RHP Hayden Shenefield to a minor league contract.
05/28/21 Cincinnati Reds optioned RHP Art Warren to Louisville Bats.
05/28/21 Cincinnati Reds optioned RHP Ashton Goudeau to Louisville Bats.
05/28/21 Cincinnati Reds recalled RHP Vladimir Gutierrez from Louisville Bats.
05/27/21 Cincinnati Reds placed RHP Jeff Hoffman on the 10-day injured list. Right shoulder.
05/27/21 Cincinnati Reds recalled RHP Art Warren from Louisville Bats.
05/26/21 Cincinnati Reds recalled LHP Cionel Perez from Louisville Bats.
05/24/21 Cincinnati Reds sent RHP Carson Fulmer outright to Louisville Bats.
05/21/21 Cincinnati Reds recalled RHP Ashton Goudeau from Louisville Bats.
05/21/21 Cincinnati Reds selected the contract of RHP Brad Brach from Louisville Bats.
05/21/21 Cincinnati Reds placed LHP Wade Miley on the 10-day injured list. Left foot sprain.
05/21/21 Cincinnati Reds designated RHP Carson Fulmer for assignment.
05/18/21 Cincinnati Reds optioned LHP Cionel Perez to Louisville Bats.
05/17/21 RHP Sal Romano elected free agency.
05/17/21 Cincinnati Reds activated RHP Michael Feliz.
05/17/21 Cincinnati Reds optioned RHP Art Warren to Louisville Bats.
05/16/21 Cincinnati Reds activated LHP Amir Garrett.
05/14/21 Cincinnati Reds recalled RHP Art Warren from Louisville Bats.
05/14/21 Cincinnati Reds designated RHP Sal Romano for assignment.

That's a metric ton of transactions over a 3 week period. What is it about the following excites anyone? It's Antone and Sims. That's it. That's the list.

Name	Age	ERA	G	GF	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	IBB	SO	HBP	WP	ERA+	FIP	WHIP	H9	HR9	BB9	SO9	SO/W
Lucas Sims	27	4.70	22	7	23.0	15	14	12	2	13	2	35	4	2	99	3.45	1.217	5.9	0.8	5.1	13.7	2.69
Tejay Antone	27	1.41	20	4	32.0	12	5	5	2	11	0	40	3	1	328	2.77	0.719	3.4	0.6	3.1	11.3	3.64
Carson Fulmer	27	6.66	20	5	25.2	26	20	19	3	13	0	24	3	2	69	4.66	1.519	9.1	1.1	4.6	8.4	1.85
Sean Doolittle*	34	4.12	23	6	19.2	20	9	9	3	10	1	28	0	0	113	3.81	1.525	9.2	1.4	4.6	12.8	2.80
Amir Garrett*	29	9.56	19	4	16.0	17	17	17	7	12	2	17	0	1	49	8.96	1.813	9.6	3.9	6.8	9.6	1.42
Sal Romano	27	5.23	14	5	20.2	20	14	12	4	9	2	12	0	0	89	5.81	1.403	8.7	1.7	3.9	5.2	1.33
Jose De Leon (40-man)	28	8.35	9	1	18.1	22	17	17	4	11	0	33	2	3	56	4.51	1.800	10.8	2.0	5.4	16.2	3.00
Cionel Pérez* (40-man)	25	8.31	18	2	17.1	17	18	16	3	18	1	13	0	1	56	7.01	2.019	8.8	1.6	9.3	6.8	0.72
Heath Hembree	32	5.40	16	3	16.2	9	11	10	4	5	0	24	1	0	86	4.46	0.840	4.9	2.2	2.7	13.0	4.80
Ryan Hendrix	26	4.70	17	4	15.1	15	9	8	2	9	1	17	0	0	99	4.38	1.565	8.8	1.2	5.3	10.0	1.89
Vladimir Gutiérrez	25	2.70	2	0	10.0	5	3	3	1	5	0	6	0	0	175	4.74	1.000	4.5	0.9	4.5	5.4	1.20
Michael Feliz	28	16.20	9	5	6.2	13	12	12	2	4	0	9	0	1	30	6.14	2.550	17.6	2.7	5.4	12.2	2.25
Brad Brach	35	6.00	7	3	6.0	7	4	4	1	2	0	9	0	1	80	3.31	1.500	10.5	1.5	3.0	13.5	4.50
Cam Bedrosian	29	11.12	6	2	5.2	10	7	7	2	6	0	7	0	0	44	8.44	2.824	15.9	3.2	9.5	11.1	1.17
Ashton Goudeau	28	0.00	2	0	4.0	1	0	0	0	1	0	2	0	0		2.89	0.500	2.3	0.0	2.3	4.5	2.00

And yes I see Romano's overall numbers as just as craptastic as the rest of the pen. But in context, he had 4 straight outings where didn't allow an earned run, 1 of which he allowed an inherited runner to score.

May Bullpen numbers:

NAME	GP	IP	H	ER	HR	BB	K	K/9	WHIP	ERA
Tyler Mahle SP	6	29.2	31	16	5	8	28	8.5	1.31	4.85
Luis Castillo SP	6	28	38	25	3	16	29	9.3	1.93	8.04
Sonny Gray SP	5	28.2	21	7	3	11	29	9.1	1.12	2.20
Jeff Hoffman SP	5	16.2	17	12	1	15	20	10.8	1.92	6.48
Wade Miley SP	4	22.2	23	10	0	7	21	8.3	1.32	3.97
Vladimir Gutierrez SP	1	5	2	1	1	2	3	5.4	0.80	1.80
Art Warren RP	2	2	0	0	0	2	2	9.0	1.00	0.00
Sean Doolittle RP	11	10	9	3	2	3	15	13.5	1.20	2.70
Michael Feliz RP *	7	6.1	9	7	1	3	8	11.4	1.89	9.95
Brad Brach RP	5	5	5	2	1	1	7	12.6	1.20	3.60
Heath Hembree RP	10	11	6	6	3	1	15	12.3	0.64	4.91
Carson Fulmer SP	7	10.2	15	12	2	7	11	9.3	2.06	10.13
Ryan Hendrix RP	12	12	13	8	2	6	14	10.5	1.58	6.00
Jose De Leon RP	1	1.2	3	3	0	1	1	5.4	2.40	16.20
Lucas Sims SP	9	9.2	6	6	1	5	14	13.0	1.14	5.59
Sal Romano SP	4	5.1	3	0	0	1	5	8.4	0.75	0.00
Max Schrock 2B	1	0.2	0	0	0	0	0	0.0	0.00	0.00
Ashton Goudeau RP	2	4	1	0	0	1	2	4.5	0.50	0.00
Tejay Antone SP	9	14	6	4	1	4	17	10.9	0.71	2.57
Amir Garrett RP	9	7.2	3	3	1	5	12	14.1	1.04	3.52
Cionel Perez RP	7	7	8	5	1	7	5	6.4	2.14	6.43
Alex Blandino SS	2	2.1	1	0	0	3	1	3.9	1.71	0.00
Totals	27	240	220	130	28	109	259	9.7	1.37	4.88

I'm not going to lose sleep over the fact that my breakout player pick is now a part of the evil empire, or that they have a bunch of guys I have never heard of pitching lights out in the pen. But damn, even Wandy Peralta is pitching ok. Not great, but ok.

How many Reds relievers after Antone are even pitching ok? Sims?

Now. I am done defending my dumb point. Big Sal was likely headed for another Dodgers Meltdown anyway. Even if he has not been scored on at AAA and has really no chance of cracking into the Yankees pen as they are pretty damn good. Seriously, who in the blue hell is ALBERT ABREU?

[Mitri]

Please name their stud starting pitching prospects they use as relievers.

- - - Updated - - -



Word-for-word what they said about Chapman and are now saying about Antone.

Chapman became the best reliever of a generation. Antone is quite possibly the most valuable reliever in baseball. Your point?

[DocRed]

Chapman became the best reliever of a generation. Antone is quite possibly the most valuable reliever in baseball. Your point?

I checked the other day and he has the highest bWAR of any reliever this year (now 2.2, Hader is next closest at 1.8). Better than Kimbrel, Chapman, Hader etc...unless I am missing someone. It's a shame that I believe he doesn't qualify for the ROY or he might just win it. FG is way different though FWIW..

[Falls City Beer]

Please name their stud starting pitching prospects they use as relievers.

- - - Updated - - -



Word-for-word what they said about Chapman and are now saying about Antone.

Glasnow pitches a 3 2/3 to 4 inning load almost all the time. Occasionally he goes deeper but very seldom.

The problem is the Rays don’t have a ton of stud prospects to make some direct comparison. But the idea that they can’t throw out of the MLB pen for 3 inning stints because old-timey reasons is just stupid.

[kaldaniels]

Glasnow pitches a 3 2/3 to 4 inning load almost all the time. Occasionally he goes deeper but very seldom.

The problem is the Rays don’t have a ton of stud prospects to make some direct comparison. But the idea that they can’t throw out of the MLB pen for 3 inning stints because old-timey reasons is just stupid.

That’s not right about Glasnow.

He’s gone 6 innings+ 75% of the time and 4.2 is his lowest IP outing.

That’s this season. But that’s how he is handled now.

[Falls City Beer]

That’s not right about Glasnow.

He’s gone 6 innings+ 75% of the time and 4.2 is his lowest IP outing.

That’s this season. But that’s how he is handled now.

Look at his numbers in 18-19. The Pirates used him as a bullpen guy early in the season then the Rays simply transitioned him to starting. And did so very conservatively and slowly.

[Roy Tucker]

I’m not defending what the Reds did with Chapman, but their hand got somewhat forced in 2012. Ryan Madson was signed to be the Reds’ closer but blew out his elbow in spring training. Nick Masset had shoulder issues. Then they tried Sean Marshall and he didn’t quite make the grade. Then they used Chapman. He was great and too good to move out of the closer slot. Plus the Reds had good starters in Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Latos.

I think then Chapman became enamored with the closer role throwing 103 mph fastballs and resisted moving.

[Bob Sheed]

Obviously it would have to be very closely managed. Especially when it comes to Greene. And I’m not calling for it now, but more like after the break and only if this team looks good enough to contend.

Fair enough. If they wait until the break for reinforcements, it will most likely be too late though.

[Kc61]

Antone’s thrown 32 innings in 20 outings over 35% of the season. He’s on track for 90+ innings over 60 outings, generally speaking.

That’s a major workload, mostly in high leverage spots. I’m not persuaded that as a starter his contribution would be greater, although he’d have more innings.

My only concern is durability. I’m not sure a reliever used 60 times for 90 innings can hold up very long. Add in the warm up sessions. A starter today, six innings, then no game action for four (sometimes five) days. Maybe wiser for the long run.

[Kc61]

I really don’t see why utilizing Lodolo and/or Greene for 2 inning stints twice a week, after they each get 15 starts or so in the minors, would ruin their development. Their innings and pitches thrown are hyper-managed. What it really comes down to is how much they are throwing each week (in games, bullpen sessions, etc.) - why would it be so difficult for them to throw their last innings of the season in Cinci’s bullpen?

I too don’t buy that it would ruin their development. But I still wouldn’t use Greene or Lodolo in relief this year. (Except in a World Series run which isn’t happening.)

They just haven’t pitched enough in the minors. I’d give them classic training for a starting pitcher this year. I see these two guys as the Reds’ greatest asset for the long term. I’d be cautious with them.

[forfreelin04]

This is a great thread.

All I'll say is pitcher's are like cars. Doesn't matter if it's a sports car, a sedan, or a dang mini-van...they all eventually crap out due to mileage. If the best arms in your organization are eating up innings starting in AA and AAA, they still count as mileage. A mile spent in the Major Leagues is worth much more to an organization than anywhere else.

I believe Adam Wainwright in 2006 was the Cards closer down the stretch. He was a starter all his career prior to the year. How did that turn out for the Cards? And oh, he also went back to being a starter in 2007. Is he still in the majors? LOL

SMH at some of you folks saying Greene and Lodolo's careers will be ruined by relief pitching. Castellanos is gone after this year. Winker is having an MVP year. The starting pitching is just good enough; especially if Castillo can just be league average or better. Bring those youngsters up and give them the ball. Make it a fun year and let a real MLB crowd cheer for them. I believe they'll both rise to the occasion.

[WildcatFan]

Thank god you’re not in charge!

“Hunter Greene has 20 excellent innings at AA, bring him up immediately and have him pitch 2 innings a week out of the bullpen!”

Very much looking forward to seeing his breakout 2024. I can barely sleep.

[*BaseClogger*]

Maybe this makes me a unicorn, but I think the Reds have screwed up by leaving Antone in the bullpen but am also ok with calling up Lodolo/Greene in August to pitch as relievers. I guess I see them as different cases because Antone is currently 27 years old and clearly no longer challenged by being in the bullpen. If he's ever going to be a good SP--which is more valuable than a RP!--it would be now in his prime when he's blowing hitters away out of the bullpen.

For Lodolo/Greene, their innings will be capped anyways and Greene especially isn't going to make MLB starts this season regardless. They probably need to keep Lodolo stretched out to potentially help out in the rotation if there are injuries. But there are plenty of historical examples of quality SPs breaking into the bigs as relievers, and these guys throwing out of the bullpen in their first year at such young ages is different than Antone already being in his prime...

[Griffey012]

Either we believe in the Boddy system or we don't. The fact is the Reds kept Fulmer over Romano despite him starting to have some success. Since then they have gone through how many pitchers?

I'm not going to lose sleep over the fact that my breakout player pick is now a part of the evil empire, or that they have a bunch of guys I have never heard of pitching lights out in the pen. But damn, even Wandy Peralta is pitching ok. Not great, but ok.

How many Reds relievers after Antone are even pitching ok? Sims?

Now. I am done defending my dumb point. Big Sal was likely headed for another Dodgers Meltdown anyway. Even if he has not been scored on at AAA and has really no chance of cracking into the Yankees pen as they are pretty damn good. Seriously, who in the blue hell is ALBERT ABREU?

Boddy will pay dividends developing pitchers year over year in the minors. Very limited chance for him to have some sort of amazing impact on short-term acquisitions. I would have thought the Reds organizational pitching staff would have got better results out of the guys they brought to Spring Training though.