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Thread: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

  1. #61
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by forfreelin04 View Post
    This is a great thread.

    All I'll say is pitcher's are like cars. Doesn't matter if it's a sports car, a sedan, or a dang mini-van...they all eventually crap out due to mileage. If the best arms in your organization are eating up innings starting in AA and AAA, they still count as mileage. A mile spent in the Major Leagues is worth much more to an organization than anywhere else.

    I believe Adam Wainwright in 2006 was the Cards closer down the stretch. He was a starter all his career prior to the year. How did that turn out for the Cards? And oh, he also went back to being a starter in 2007. Is he still in the majors? LOL

    SMH at some of you folks saying Greene and Lodolo's careers will be ruined by relief pitching. Castellanos is gone after this year. Winker is having an MVP year. The starting pitching is just good enough; especially if Castillo can just be league average or better. Bring those youngsters up and give them the ball. Make it a fun year and let a real MLB crowd cheer for them. I believe they'll both rise to the occasion.
    Jim Palmer and Don Gullett came up as teens and worked out of the BP too.

    The key is NOT to try and do duel roles, if they start next year fine, but if they come up now they are BP arms

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  4. #62
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    I would have thought the Reds organizational pitching staff would have got better results out of the guys they brought to Spring Training though.
    I just never believe that, e.g., when the Astros let go of Cionel Perez; or the Pirates Michael Feliz; or the Dodgers and Rays DeLeon; that these teams are inferior at evaluating pitchers.

    Sure, you take a shot, once in awhile it works out. And Driveline has had success. But the odds seem low when guys kick around awhile, don’t have success, and are then released.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-08-2021 at 01:28 PM.

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  6. #63
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Reds ownership has been shortsighted for over 4 decades - the day they decided to ignore free agency in the Fall of 1976 marked a turning point in the franchise - basically let's play with one hand tied behind our back. In the 80's they squandered fan base by allowing the Cubs and Braves to enroach into their territory by superstations (rather than use the old Metromedia stations to their advantage). On and on, until this offseason, when ownership decided that Covid protocols were here to stay for as far as they could see, and there would be attendance limits all year and therefore, they had to make cuts to the team.

    So here we are - most of this thread doesn't say spend more $$$, it says bring up prospects for the bullpen. I'm not sure it'll work, but its at least an option for this season. Spending on actual bullpen arms on the market is now a bigger hurdle than it was in January because those arms are dutifully employed and some of those prospects may be needed to get those arms (some of which are on par to the arms ownership gave away this winter for nothing - i.e. Bradley, Iglesias - and not saying they should of kept them, but giving them away for nothing still makes no sense at this time). The other issue is who is even available - what team has arms for sale at this point? Brad Hand of the Nats? Who else?

    As I've said before ownership gave up for 2021 in January. To take that back now will be much harder and I've never seen one iota of evidence that ownership/management have the imagination of the Rays/A's to do that. If the team actually wins the division, it will be because of the players not management/ownership.

  7. #64
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by WildcatFan View Post
    Very much looking forward to seeing his breakout 2024. I can barely sleep.
    2024? It wold be 2022. This guy hasn’t pitched in years before this season because of TJ.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

  8. #65
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    It’s worth mentioning that Wainwright pitched about 800 minor league innings before being promoted to the majors. Lodi Lodolo has pitched about 300 between college and the minors.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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  10. #66
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Look at his numbers in 18-19. The Pirates used him as a bullpen guy early in the season then the Rays simply transitioned him to starting. And did so very conservatively and slowly.
    I actually dont disagree with FCB on this one. The Dodgers have used each of Gonsolin, Urias, and May at various times early in their development in the bullpen. Some more sporadic than others. Usually dependent on team need, innings limits, etc. Glasnow is an example too, especially as a guy that had some injury issues and was slowly eased into things. Tampa moved him to the rotation after there was an easing in period to get him going.

    I don't think at all easing a player into the majors through the bullpen, or a modified plan ruins it at all.

    I do think Antone's long term future is as a starter, but no, I don't think he's being ruined, I do think the Reds are getting a high amount of value for him as the team is currently constructed, and have patience for this plan as time happens and we hopefully add some better relievers to the mix.

    As for the minor leaguers like Greene/Lodolo, et al, I have interest in a similar, short term plan. These players will have innings limits this year (especially Greene), and getting some early major league experience through the pen seems like a reasonable fit for both player and team.

    Again, would have an eye on long term development as starters.


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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    It may end up a moot point on Greene ending up in the bullpen, unless he figures out an off-speed/third pitch. And the best place to do that is not at the major league level.

    Sure, he would most likely be effective enough coming and throwing two innings with a fastball/slider combination. But to start, he needs to develop an effective third pitch. Question is, do you want him developing that third pitch at AA/AAA, where the stakes are lower, or working on a third pitch in the 8th/9th inning of a pennant run?

    Of course, it would be great to have Greene as a shut-down, high-leverage arm out of the pen, but suddenly the motivation to have him continue to develop as a starter wanes. He has no motivation to even work on a third pitch, because, chances are he won't need it in the Reds' bullpen. He will become a right-handed Aroldis Chapman, except now, 100+ mph pitchers are no longer a novelty.

    To me, if Greene ends up as nothing more than bullpen piece, it would be a huge disappointment, and a waste of a high draft pick earned by suffering through a horrible season.
    “I think I throw the ball as hard as anyone. The ball just doesn't get there as fast.” — Eddie Bane

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  14. #68
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I just never believe that, e.g., when the Astros let go of Cionel Perez; or the Pirates Michael Feliz; or the Dodgers and Rays DeLeon; that these teams are inferior at evaluating pitchers.

    Sure, you take a shot, once in awhile it works out. And Driveline has had success. But the odds seem low when guys kick around awhile, don’t have success, and are then released.
    Exactly. Its OK to take a gamble once in a while. It can't be the primary plan for filling holes on the roster. De Leon has had a "great arm" for years. Fulmer has one of the best spin rates in baseball. Neither of those things has ever translated to big league success for these long stale one time prospects. No expectations it ever will at this point. Sure, roll the dice for little to no investment, but make them earn it, don't just hand them a spot and consider the holes filled. That's my issue with how this team operates.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  16. #69
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS21 View Post

    To me, if Greene ends up as nothing more than bullpen piece, it would be a huge disappointment, and a waste of a high draft pick earned by suffering through a horrible season.
    Greene was touted as a potential two way player. I 'd rather seem him in the starting 8 long term than in the pen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    sdwagers for Reds GM!

  17. #70
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS21 View Post
    It may end up a moot point on Greene ending up in the bullpen, unless he figures out an off-speed/third pitch. And the best place to do that is not at the major league level.

    Sure, he would most likely be effective enough coming and throwing two innings with a fastball/slider combination. But to start, he needs to develop an effective third pitch. Question is, do you want him developing that third pitch at AA/AAA, where the stakes are lower, or working on a third pitch in the 8th/9th inning of a pennant run?

    Of course, it would be great to have Greene as a shut-down, high-leverage arm out of the pen, but suddenly the motivation to have him continue to develop as a starter wanes. He has no motivation to even work on a third pitch, because, chances are he won't need it in the Reds' bullpen. He will become a right-handed Aroldis Chapman, except now, 100+ mph pitchers are no longer a novelty.

    To me, if Greene ends up as nothing more than bullpen piece, it would be a huge disappointment, and a waste of a high draft pick earned by suffering through a horrible season.
    I think the idea is that he gets 85 to 90% of his innings limit as a minor league starter and works on the things you say, but instead of being shut down, he comes up in August as a boost to the bullpen. If the idea is to call him up now, I'm completely against it.
    All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!

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  19. #71
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think the idea is that he gets 85 to 90% of his innings limit as a minor league starter and works on the things you say, but instead of being shut down, he comes up in August as a boost to the bullpen. If the idea is to call him up now, I'm completely against it.
    This would be my plan for both of them unless they are just absolutely lights out between now and then.

  20. #72
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    It’s worth mentioning that Wainwright pitched about 800 minor league innings before being promoted to the majors. Lodi Lodolo has pitched about 300 between college and the minors.
    Yep. People forget Lodolo has pitched a grand total of 45 professional innings. Folks need to slow their roll.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

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  22. #73
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    I actually dont disagree with FCB on this one. The Dodgers have used each of Gonsolin, Urias, and May at various times early in their development in the bullpen. Some more sporadic than others. Usually dependent on team need, innings limits, etc. Glasnow is an example too, especially as a guy that had some injury issues and was slowly eased into things. Tampa moved him to the rotation after there was an easing in period to get him going.

    I don't think at all easing a player into the majors through the bullpen, or a modified plan ruins it at all.

    I do think Antone's long term future is as a starter, but no, I don't think he's being ruined, I do think the Reds are getting a high amount of value for him as the team is currently constructed, and have patience for this plan as time happens and we hopefully add some better relievers to the mix.

    As for the minor leaguers like Greene/Lodolo, et al, I have interest in a similar, short term plan. These players will have innings limits this year (especially Greene), and getting some early major league experience through the pen seems like a reasonable fit for both player and team.

    Again, would have an eye on long term development as starters.
    That was Mitri’s argument originally. But I agreed with his take.

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  24. #74
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Yep. People forget Lodolo has pitched a grand total of 45 professional innings. Folks need to slow their roll.
    He's 23 and he's dealing. That's not a recipe for spending a lot of time in the minors. I get that there's a pile of things we don't know about him yet and that he hasn't seen, but if he's still chewing up opposing lineups in July he's going to be nearly irresistible. Will be curious what sort of innings/usage he's got. I'm guessing they gave him a simulated workload last year to advance him from the 128 IP he threw in 2019.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  25. #75
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    Re: Hey Reds Ownership, It's Your Move

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Yep. People forget Lodolo has pitched a grand total of 45 professional innings. Folks need to slow their roll.
    Dude... Lodolo live once...
    "Lemonade requires a significant amount of sugar. Otherwise, you've just made lemon juice."

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