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Thread: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

  1. #31
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    According to Spotrac’s payroll list, Reds have the 17th highest payroll this season. And currently the 15th best W-L record. There’s an argument Reds have mid-pack payroll, mid-pack performance, all fair given market size.

    Which is why my concern is about getting more for the money rather than too much focus on the total.

    You can’t lop off $20 million without some restructuring to make the pieces work. You can’t have a fairly expensive set of position players and a bullpen topping out at $1.5 million (Lorenzen, potential starter, excluded).

    Agree with Roy Tucker that money is at the root of most of Reds’ trades; but question for Reds should go beyond is budget balanced. The question should also be is that payroll allocated to maximize the team’s chances.
    Last edited by Kc61; 06-19-2021 at 10:38 AM.

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  4. #32
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post
    Castellni was supposed to be the cure for Linder. If Castellini sold the next owner would not be the cure either. No owner is going operate on basis of losing money every year.

    You find me the billionaire who says who says "deficits don't matter, I'll spend whatever it takes, and make it up when I sell" then I'll support that person.

    You aren't going to find them.
    So much this.

    Unfortunately if you make a Venn Diagram of billionaires on one side, and people willing to fritter away money on something as frivolous (in the big scheme of things) as a baseball team on the other, the area of convergence has to be quite small.

    Hopefully one of those 3 people will buy the Reds.

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  6. #33
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    No I am not. I have never been one to spend other people's money.

  7. #34
    Moderator cumberlandreds's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    I knew back in 2013 that this ownership had no interest in winning. When they would not find a replacement for Ryan Ludwick after he went down for the year on opening day I knew they had no interest in winning. So I have been long since over this and just set back and hope for a miracle season every year.
    Reds Fan Since 1971

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  9. #35
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I disagree with this. The deals are out there if a GM is motivated to make them happen.
    The Brewers got Adames. There's been a few other trades made since the season started.
    Plenty of tanking teams that would love to dump salary or get younger.
    Krall needs to get to work.. Seriously, toss in another prospect to get the team to eat the salary if need be.
    At least get some decent middle guys and push guys like Dolittle, Hendrix, and maybe Garrett off the team.
    There's a big difference between it could happen and it's likely to happen. I agree they should be burning up the phones right now, but we've been watching baseball long enough to know the market stays pretty quiet until July. Mind you, it's going to be impossible to tell whether it's a case of a sleepy market or the Reds dragging their feet. It would be refreshing for them to get ahead of the market for once.
    The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
    In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there

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  11. #36
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    I went to the Reds game last Saturday with my family. It was a gift for my dad for Fathers Day.

    I brought my two boys (ages 6 and 3) with me and even though it was 90+ degrees and 144824% humidity, the most miserable part of the afternoon was the fact that I had to pay $12 for a gd slushie. I swear if I have to pay $12 for a slushie again, I sure as hell better get a better arm to close the game than Amir Garrett.

    We left after the 3rd inning.
    You left after the 3rd inning of a game where they banged out 14 hits and won 10-3?
    The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
    In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there

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  13. #37
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    This is getting to be like 2013 all over again, where they've got an otherwise very solid team, but one glaring hole means they limp into the playoffs only to be quickly eliminated.
    Gratitude + Forgiveness = Happiness
    "I believe in the Church of Baseball" -- Annie Savoy (Bull Durham)
    "Not knowing what something is, is not evidence that you know what that thing is" -- NdGT

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  15. #38
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by cumberlandreds View Post
    I knew back in 2013 that this ownership had no interest in winning. When they would not find a replacement for Ryan Ludwick after he went down for the year on opening day I knew they had no interest in winning. So I have been long since over this and just set back and hope for a miracle season every year.
    This is like one of those slights that happens in a relationship and you don't really think that much of it at the time, but as time goes on it bugs you more and more. That team had the horses to win it all (they should have in 2012 and I will go to my grave believing they would have if Cueto hadn't have gotten hurt). A replacement wouldn't even have cost that much money, and the team was right there. That was the most joyless winning/playoff season in history, and I believe not getting anyone to replace Ludwick was a big reason why.

    Ownership told everyone right there that they weren't really in this to win. They've done nothing since to prove any different.

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  17. #39
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    According to Spotrac’s payroll list, Reds have the 17th highest payroll this season. And currently the 15th best W-L record. There’s an argument Reds have mid-pack payroll, mid-pack performance, all fair given market size.

    Which is why my concern is about getting more for the money rather than too much focus on the total.

    You can’t lop off $20 million without some restructuring to make the pieces work. You can’t have a fairly expensive set of position players and a bullpen topping out at $1.5 million (Lorenzen, potential starter, excluded).

    Agree with Roy Tucker that money is at the root of most of Reds’ trades; but question for Reds should go beyond is budget balanced. The question should also be is that payroll allocated to maximize the team’s chances.
    We’re still below the league average, and given how low that average is dragged down by the number of tanking teams or other organizations who are pathetically not trying, that’s an unacceptable place to be for a team ostensibly trying to compete.
    Especially when you look at who is below us, and it’s basically where the laughing stocks of the league begins, your Arizonas or Colorados, with an occasional Brewers or one of the magic analytics teams like the Rays or Indians sprinkled in there (ie, definitely not us)

    They can afford the 140-150 million dollar payroll they were fielding the last year. The combined wealth of all the collective ownership can weather the hit of covid, if there even was truly any losses at all and not simply “we didn’t make as many tens of millions as we would’ve liked”

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  19. #40
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by bm1475 View Post
    This is like one of those slights that happens in a relationship and you don't really think that much of it at the time, but as time goes on it bugs you more and more. That team had the horses to win it all (they should have in 2012 and I will go to my grave believing they would have if Cueto hadn't have gotten hurt). A replacement wouldn't even have cost that much money, and the team was right there. That was the most joyless winning/playoff season in history, and I believe not getting anyone to replace Ludwick was a big reason why.

    Ownership told everyone right there that they weren't really in this to win. They've done nothing since to prove any different.
    2013 was weird, but 2012 was hardly joyless by any means. They felt like they were going all the way the entire season and they were clearly the best team in the NL.

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  21. #41
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    It's clear to me that ownership's philosophy is, "we want to win, but we absolutely refuse to ever post a single-year loss in order to do it." They WERE all-in, but something changed after 2012. What's funny about that is the attendance numbers skyrocketed when they were trying, and cratered when they weren't. Maybe they realized they make more money even if attendance is bare minimum (2018's 1.6 million has to be just about rock bottom).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    2013 was weird, but 2012 was hardly joyless by any means. They felt like they were going all the way the entire season and they were clearly the best team in the NL.
    2013 is the year I was referencing, yes. 2012 was an amazing ride.

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  23. #42
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by bm1475 View Post
    It's clear to me that ownership's philosophy is, "we want to win, but we absolutely refuse to ever post a single-year loss in order to do it." They WERE all-in, but something changed after 2012. What's funny about that is the attendance numbers skyrocketed when they were trying, and cratered when they weren't. Maybe they realized they make more money even if attendance is bare minimum (2018's 1.6 million has to be just about rock bottom).

    - - - Updated - - -



    2013 is the year I was referencing, yes. 2012 was an amazing ride.
    Gotcha, I got a little mixed up there.



    Yeah I think it’s probably not exactly a coincidence that they stopped spending both when Jocketty left, a guy that represened like a legacy figure and a successful executive from a historically successful organization that Castellini had ties to, and when one of the owner’s sons left, a guy that might have more sway among ownership and might’ve convinced them they needed to actually spend more and try.

    Krall in comparison is just a guy, and probably has 0 weight to throw around to put the brakes on any Mike Brown-esque race to the bottom in payroll scheme, to do the bare minimum while still turning a profit.

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  25. #43
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    I enjoyed 2013 even if I wanted to punch them in the neck for not getting a replacement for Ludwick. They won 90 games and they were in the hunt to win the division right up until they dropped five straight to close the season.
    The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
    In hopes that St. Nicholas soon would be there

  26. #44
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    My biggest complaint about 2013 is that there was an easy, cheap solution to losing Ludwick. Move Choo from CF to LF and call up Billy Hamilton.

    Hamilton would have hit the same as who the Reds were playing in LF, basically Heisey and Robinson, but provided a huge upgrade for the defense. I believe that would have provided the extra wins needed to win the NL Central. They were just 2 games out with a week to go, then lost their lasts 5 games which made it seem like they were farther out of it than they were.
    That’s why we’re playing, bro

  27. #45
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Anyone else at a breaking point with ownership?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thisyear View Post
    You know how many businesses operate at a loss to increase the businesses net worth. Uber and lyft still don't turn a profit. It is smart business in a lot of situations including owning a sports team. A winning Reds franchise is worth a hell of a lot more than a losing Reds franchise.

    We don't know that he is losing money anyways. Cutting payroll 40million is a lot.
    Exactly, I doubt any MLB is really losing money on baseball related operations.
    Sure, they do accounting tricks to make it look like a loss (Lindner charged his lobbying expenses
    to the Reds). And sure, these accounting trick are legal.. But it's deceptive they way they say
    "The Reds lost money"..

    In other words, the sum of revenue sharing + TV money + ticket money is greater than the expenses of payroll
    and other expenses the club has. If not, payrolls across the entire league would be down and franchises would
    not appreciate. I don't begrudge the owners making money every once in a while.. Most of the board was
    relatively understanding during the 5 year tank.. but part of that understanding was that after tanking, the Reds
    were going to try to win. It's inexcusable not to reinforce the bullpen this year. If the Reds made the playoffs this year,
    they probably make more money off ticket sales next year.. They start to build their brand back up.. But nope, easier
    to sit back and do nothing, and let that revenue sharing money and TV money roll in.
    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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