Jeff Hoffman

[Moose Herd]

I keep seeing how Hoffman has been pretty good the first time through the order, and he has been ok this season (.662 OPS against), but that's not what he would be doing as a reliever. Unless he's pitching just in long relief, where he may go 2-3 innings, it's more likely it's going to be based on number of pitches.

If you look at his pitch count numbers, relieving makes much less sense:

1-25 .794
26-50 .543
51-75 1.064

Getting through that first inning of relieving is going to be the issue.

[TRF]

His career road HR rate is slightly higher than his home HR rate in his career. So while COL is awful for pitchers, I don't buy the fact it played this huge role with Hoffman, we've seen some guys have major splits in COL and on the road. Maybe the Reds coaches can pull a miracle in a just a few extra weeks of rehabbing, it just seems unlikely. I'd be content with some creativity on filling their 5th starter spot since they don't really have an option to be counted on the rest of the season.

You are still missing the effect Coors can have on a pitcher's delivery, the lack of time Hoffman got with coaches and the time he got during his IL stint and his subsequent rehab assignment. All that together could equal a major change in his delivery, approach and mindset.

Honestly I think the same thing applies to Cionel Perez with his times optioned to AAA. He's a guy the Reds want to count on with a big arm, so down there he likely got some extra attention.

[Griffey012]

You are still missing the effect Coors can have on a pitcher's delivery, the lack of time Hoffman got with coaches and the time he got during his IL stint and his subsequent rehab assignment. All that together could equal a major change in his delivery, approach and mindset.

Honestly I think the same thing applies to Cionel Perez with his times optioned to AAA. He's a guy the Reds want to count on with a big arm, so down there he likely got some extra attention.

It is also just possible that Hoffman isn't very good. I liked the acquisition and thought it was worth the gamble, maybe there is still more to Hoffman, but the early season returns where he largely looked like the same pitcher he was in Colorado have really dampened my optimism.

[Moose Herd]

It is also just possible that Hoffman isn't very good. I liked the acquisition and thought it was worth the gamble, maybe there is still more to Hoffman, but the early season returns where he largely looked like the same pitcher he was in Colorado have really dampened my optimism.

His number one issue is that he walks way too many people, so if he can cut that down he'll be awesome. And if my grandmother had wheels, she's be a wagon.

[Tom Servo]

It is also just possible that Hoffman isn't very good.

He isn't. But he's got lots of experience and through 9 starts, before that disasterpiece where he got injured, was pitching way better than anybody thought he might at the back of the rotation, and accomplishing way more than the more touted Jose De Leon.

I'm really not that high on Hoffman, I just think he's right on that fine line of keeping his ERA below 5.00 and giving you a chance to win after 5 innings.

I worry about Vlad despite some of the excitement around him, I think things could get real ugly with him unless he finds a few extra tricks. I think he's more the pitcher we've seen in his last 4 starts (6.75 ERA, 6 HRs, .284 BA, .292 BABIP) than his first 4 starts (2.74 ERA, 2 HRs, .185 BA, .210 BABIP)

[Mitri]

With the way the bullpen is going, I wonder if they will send Vlad back down to AAA to work on pitches, rather than use him in the bullpen. Bring up Santillan for the pen and Hoffman to start. They need that 6th guy ready to go and have already begun converting Tony.

I’m willing to give Hoffman another stretch of starts, but they’ll want Vlad ready to go down in Louisville, too.

[mth123]

I keep seeing how Hoffman has been pretty good the first time through the order, and he has been ok this season (.662 OPS against), but that's not what he would be doing as a reliever. Unless he's pitching just in long relief, where he may go 2-3 innings, it's more likely it's going to be based on number of pitches.

If you look at his pitch count numbers, relieving makes much less sense:

1-25 .794
26-50 .543
51-75 1.064

Getting through that first inning of relieving is going to be the issue.

Good post. This is actually pretty revealing. As a starter, those first 25 pitches would be against the top of the order. say hitters 1 through 5. Those next 25 are against the weaker bottom of the order, including the pitcher. Then he comes back around to the top again and gets creamed. Looks like a long reliever or minor leaguer to me.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I keep seeing how Hoffman has been pretty good the first time through the order, and he has been ok this season (.662 OPS against), but that's not what he would be doing as a reliever. Unless he's pitching just in long relief, where he may go 2-3 innings, it's more likely it's going to be based on number of pitches.

If you look at his pitch count numbers, relieving makes much less sense:

1-25 .794
26-50 .543
51-75 1.064

Getting through that first inning of relieving is going to be the issue.

I would assume he'd be used as a multiple-inning guy in the current Red 'pen. Too, pitching in relief usually means at least a slight change in repertoire and often a bump in velocity. Last year, in the pen, Hoffman added a bit to his fastball in shorter stints.

Hoffman might, for example, ditch his change and curve for an effective slider (2.11 runs above average/100 pitches) and his fastball (-0.82 runs above average/ 100 pitches). If he can add that same velocity (or more) than he did last season, it should see his fastball improve. Might be a 2019 Robert Stephenson type.

[Griffey012]

He isn't. But he's got lots of experience and through 9 starts, before that disasterpiece where he got injured, was pitching way better than anybody thought he might at the back of the rotation, and accomplishing way more than the more touted Jose De Leon.

I'm really not that high on Hoffman, I just think he's right on that fine line of keeping his ERA below 5.00 and giving you a chance to win after 5 innings.

I worry about Vlad despite some of the excitement around him, I think things could get real ugly with him unless he finds a few extra tricks. I think he's more the pitcher we've seen in his last 4 starts (6.75 ERA, 6 HRs, .284 BA, .292 BABIP) than his first 4 starts (2.74 ERA, 2 HRs, .185 BA, .210 BABIP)

Seems like a bit of revisionist history going on in this thread in regards to early season. Hoffman made some nice appearances very early, but 5 of his last 6 starts were just bad and Bell being aggressive on pulling him early saved things from getting really ugly. He threw 80+pitches in only 4 of his 10 starts.

I am worried about Vlad as well. Ultimately he is probably going to be a decent swingman type that is on your roster and you aren't mad if he has to fill in for some starts here and there but you also don't want him making 30 starts. While the numbers look good last night, under the hood looks pretty bad. He gave up a lot of hard hit balls against a weak lineup. However, Vlad has had the kid gloves off and been over 100 3 times already, been 6 IP or more 4 times already. He should probably be a 2 times through the order SP, unless we have a comfortable lead.

The Reds should really go address the 5th start spot.

[DocRed]

I'd stick with Vlad at this point..

[Kc61]

Seems like a bit of revisionist history going on in this thread in regards to early season. Hoffman made some nice appearances very early, but 5 of his last 6 starts were just bad and Bell being aggressive on pulling him early saved things from getting really ugly. He threw 80+pitches in only 4 of his 10 starts.

I am worried about Vlad as well. Ultimately he is probably going to be a decent swingman type that is on your roster and you aren't mad if he has to fill in for some starts here and there but you also don't want him making 30 starts. While the numbers look good last night, under the hood looks pretty bad. He gave up a lot of hard hit balls against a weak lineup. However, Vlad has had the kid gloves off and been over 100 3 times already, been 6 IP or more 4 times already. He should probably be a 2 times through the order SP, unless we have a comfortable lead.

The Reds should really go address the 5th start spot.

Adding a fifth starter rather than a reliever would be ok with me, such a pitcher could move to the pen if the Reds make the playoffs. You can’t have everything, if that deal is available, ok, fine.

But I’m assuming Vlad will continue as fifth starter for awhile. They seem to be working with him. Last night, I liked that he didn’t throw many fastballs in the zone. He seemed to be using his breaking pitches as an “out” pitch.

As for Hoffman, I doubt he’s a keeper, it’s just a matter of finding a niche for the last few months. It’s not the biggest issue for the club, my slight preference would be fifth starter, but I trust the coaches to make the right call.

[mgbrown66]

Hoffman just walks too many people. I haven't seen him pitch in a while (and you can give me tons of stats) but his nibbling a$$ is just painful to watch - and that's the bottom line for me.

[RedsManRick]

I keep seeing how Hoffman has been pretty good the first time through the order, and he has been ok this season (.662 OPS against), but that's not what he would be doing as a reliever. Unless he's pitching just in long relief, where he may go 2-3 innings, it's more likely it's going to be based on number of pitches.

If you look at his pitch count numbers, relieving makes much less sense:

1-25 .794
26-50 .543
51-75 1.064

Getting through that first inning of relieving is going to be the issue.

As a starter, pitches 1-25 are against the top half of the batting order. Unless you're rolling, you don't get the 2 or 3 worst hitters on the other team to be a part of that section of pitches. I'm not sure how instructive it is for the purpose of this conversation unless you have a way to weight it by opponent quality.

[TRF]

As a starter, pitches 1-25 are against the top half of the batting order. Unless you're rolling, you don't get the 2 or 3 worst hitters on the other team to be a part of that section of pitches. I'm not sure how instructive it is for the purpose of this conversation unless you have a way to weight it by opponent quality.

Also does it indicate he takes longer to get warm? Are those his career stats or just this year? Who invented liquid soap? Have the Reds identified to him what THEY saw when they targeted him as a possible member of the staff? Did he have time to make those adjustments when plans changed during ST?

A whole lotta questions, but his numbers on his rehab assignment are very impressive. So maybe the extra time there is paying off?

[Ron Madden]

Oh My! At first glance I thought this said 3 HRs

Bobby Nightengale
@nightengalejr
Jeff Hoffman allowed three runs and six hits (two homers) in 5 1/3 innings during his rehab start at Triple-A Louisville tonight. He struck out seven and walked one.