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Thread: Jeff Hoffman

  1. #16
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    The Cubs had a pitcher named Mike Montgomery for several years that was effective in a jack-of-all trades role. He'd pitch as a swing-man when their starting staff was fully healthy but he'd slide in as a spot starter as needed throughout the year. I'd like to see Vlad & Tony become similar type pitchers. Primarily multi-inning relievers that can plug into the rotation if/when they are needed.

    Hoffman isn't great but he's the best 5th option at the moment. Tony's already going to the pen. Vlad should do the same for the remainder of this year. Adding those 2 plus a returning Lorenzen greatly improves the adequacy of the bullpen options.


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  3. #17
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    What about, and work with me here, Hoffman for the first time through the order, Vlad through the second time, and Santillan through the third?

    Or what redsfan9988 said.
    I’m theory yes, but you’ll need to show your work on roster construction and pitching schedules.

  4. #18
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    I would stick with Vlad and try Hoffman out of the bullpen.
    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

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  6. #19
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by BCubb2003 View Post
    What about, and work with me here, Hoffman for the first time through the order, Vlad through the second time, and Santillan through the third?

    Or what redsfan9988 said.
    Can you imagine in this scenario the starter breezing through the order in his three innings and the second guy not have it. This board would explode.

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  8. #20
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    I would stick with Vlad and try Hoffman out of the bullpen.
    This is where I am as well. I think Vlad/Hoffman is basically a wash. They may have different profiles, but the results are similar. Hoffman has had a lot of big league time to show he's not cut out to be in a rotation. For me the upside here is Hoffman in the pen. He seems to do well one time through the order. The team needs an effective 2 to 3 inning type in the pen. Like most relievers, Hoffman seems like he'd benefit from less exposure. Lets see what he can do there.

    I honestly don't expect all of Hoffman, Sims, Antone and Lorenzen to work out when they return. Somebody will emerge with reduced effectiveness, somebody may have an injury reoccur. If the reds add two effective relievers out of those four, I think that would be a great boon to the roster. Hoffman is probably the most likely to ho hold up through the second half.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  10. #21
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I honestly don't expect all of Hoffman, Sims, Antone and Lorenzen to work out when they return. Somebody will emerge with reduced effectiveness, somebody may have an injury reoccur. If the reds add two effective relievers out of those four, I think that would be a great boon to the roster. Hoffman is probably the most likely to ho hold up through the second half.
    It would be kind of crazy if you are incorrect, and all four of those guys came back throwing effective gas. Then we continued to get good innings from AG and the others that will still be in the bullpen, and this mess of a bullpen ends the season as an asset. The problem might be that ownership would think they could pull off this magic trick again next season.
    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

  11. #22
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    It would be kind of crazy if you are incorrect, and all four of those guys came back throwing effective gas. Then we continued to get good innings from AG and the others that will still be in the bullpen, and this mess of a bullpen ends the season as an asset. The problem might be that ownership would think they could pull off this magic trick again next season.
    It would be, but...

    1. I think Hoffman will be back. He's not really been a good pitcher, so he's a question even if healthy, but maybe a switch to the pen helps him.
    2. Lorenzen has missed over half a season with an arm issue. Who knows if he'll be the same pitcher on his return or if he'll spend the next few months trying to rediscover his location and motion. I hope he's his old self, because that would solve a problem, it's far from a sure thing.
    3. Sims has a scary injury. I hope the prognosis is correct and he stays healthy, but even if he does, his ERA this year is 5.02 which is very close to his career ERA of 4.96. Maybe that's who he is. He was good last year, but it was just 25 innings and a complete outlier from the rest of his career. No one has any idea if he'll be any good.
    4. Antone is the scariest of all. His injury sounds like TJ waiting to happen. The REds need him to come all the way back.

    I think we'll probably see at least one of these guys come back strong and help the pen, but I think counting on all four is foolish. Two would be fantastic, but the team will still need an acquisition IMO.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

  12. #23
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    This is where I am as well. I think Vlad/Hoffman is basically a wash. They may have different profiles, but the results are similar. Hoffman has had a lot of big league time to show he's not cut out to be in a rotation. For me the upside here is Hoffman in the pen. He seems to do well one time through the order. The team needs an effective 2 to 3 inning type in the pen. Like most relievers, Hoffman seems like he'd benefit from less exposure. Lets see what he can do there.

    I honestly don't expect all of Hoffman, Sims, Antone and Lorenzen to work out when they return. Somebody will emerge with reduced effectiveness, somebody may have an injury reoccur. If the reds add two effective relievers out of those four, I think that would be a great boon to the roster. Hoffman is probably the most likely to ho hold up through the second half.
    It also presumes everybody else stays healthy until the point when they return. That's always the rub with the "just wait until we get healthy" strategy -- it ignores the likelihood of additional injuries moving.

    If and when we get to a point where we've got too many healthy, effective (or presumed to be effective) relievers, we can deal with that problem. But I'm not going to spend too much time thinking about what we're going to do in advance.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  14. #24
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    This is where I am as well. I think Vlad/Hoffman is basically a wash. They may have different profiles, but the results are similar. Hoffman has had a lot of big league time to show he's not cut out to be in a rotation. For me the upside here is Hoffman in the pen. He seems to do well one time through the order. The team needs an effective 2 to 3 inning type in the pen. Like most relievers, Hoffman seems like he'd benefit from less exposure. Lets see what he can do there.

    I honestly don't expect all of Hoffman, Sims, Antone and Lorenzen to work out when they return. Somebody will emerge with reduced effectiveness, somebody may have an injury reoccur. If the reds add two effective relievers out of those four, I think that would be a great boon to the roster. Hoffman is probably the most likely to ho hold up through the second half.
    I wish Vlad success, I really do. But so far, he’s a low K, high BB, high HR, low GB starter. There is no area in which he is average or better. I don’t see his area of strength as a starter.

    Santillan has (had) a good K rate. Even Hoffman’s K rate is somewhat higher and he’s kept HRs down. With them, I can see some raison d’etre in their given or expected roles.

    I’m happy for Reds to give Vlad more chances, they’re the experts. But as a starter, I just don’t see it. As a reliever, with the stuff playing up, better chance.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-05-2021 at 01:00 PM.

  15. #25
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Small sample of 75 ABs and 90 PAs, but Hoffman's 2021 first time through the batting order results in an offensive line of .211/ .333/ .329/ .662.

    That'll certainly play as a multi-inning middle relief guy.

    (As a Rockie, that line is far less impressive. But he's pitching differently now at sea level with Johnson as his pitching coach.)
    Last edited by Bourgeois Zee; 07-05-2021 at 01:07 PM.

  16. #26
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    just to speculate - Reds haven’t stated Hoffman’s future role because Vlad is pitching tonight. Reds are awaiting the outcome.

    Guessing DJ and his guys have been working with Vlad and hope he shows more tonight. Then Reds will decide.

  17. #27
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    It also presumes everybody else stays healthy until the point when they return. That's always the rub with the "just wait until we get healthy" strategy -- it ignores the likelihood of additional injuries moving.

    If and when we get to a point where we've got too many healthy, effective (or presumed to be effective) relievers, we can deal with that problem. But I'm not going to spend too much time thinking about what we're going to do in advance.
    Agree completely
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

  18. #28
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I wish Vlad success, I really do. But so far, he’s a low K, high BB, high HR, low GB starter. There is no area in which he is average or better. I don’t see his area of strength as a starter.

    Santillan has (had) a good K rate. Even Hoffman’s K rate is somewhat higher and he’s kept HRs down. With them, I can see some raison d’etre in their given or expected roles.

    I’m happy for Reds to give Vlad more chances, they’re the experts. But as a starter, I just don’t see it. As a reliever, with the stuff playing up, better chance.
    I guess I think it doesn't matter whether its Vlad or Hoffman, the Reds fifth starter is going to a typical "I wish we had somebody better" type. Once you accept that, the intriguing aspect is Hoffman as a reliever for a two or three inning role. He might have a chance to do that.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

  19. #29
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I guess I think it doesn't matter whether its Vlad or Hoffman, the Reds fifth starter is going to a typical "I wish we had somebody better" type. Once you accept that, the intriguing aspect is Hoffman as a reliever for a two or three inning role. He might have a chance to do that.
    I don’t see it that way. I view Hoffman as better than Vlad as starter. Not only statistically but by virtue of more experience.

    But if one sees them as roughly equal, I’m not sure why Hoffman rather than Vlad is the intriguing reliever. Maybe there’s a reason for it, but I think Vlad would benefit more by the conversion.
    Last edited by Kc61; 07-05-2021 at 03:00 PM.

  20. #30
    Member mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Jeff Hoffman

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I don’t see it that way. I view Hoffman as better than Vlad as starter. Not only statistically but by virtue of more experience.

    But if one sees them as roughly equal, I’m not sure why Hoffman rather than Vlad is the intriguing reliever. Maybe there’s a reason for it, but I think Vlad would benefit more by the conversion.
    Because Hoffman has already shown an ability to get hitters out one time through the order and then run unto trouble, Take him out after 2 innings and he could be a lights out reliever. Maybe not, but I don't think he has what it takes to be a starter. He's shown that his entire career.

    I'm skeptical of Vlad myself but a bad starter and a good reliever is better than a bad starter and a bad reliever,
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH


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