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Thread: 2021 NBA Draft

  1. #31
    Member adkindo's Avatar
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo Rijo View Post
    Who says no?

    Orlando trades the #5, #33, and Terrence Ross to Golden State for the #7, James Wiseman and Jordan Poole.

    Orlando looks to miss out on what they truly needed, the chance to draft Green, Cade, or Suggs. Barnes/Kuminga appears to be the pick but while both highly talented neither fit that star guard profile that the Magic desperately need. This trade gives them a potential star big in the making and the chance to draft two from that next level of prospects in the draft - Johnson, Bouknight, Mitchell, Kispert, Moody, Williams etc. If Orlando could come away from the draft with James Wiseman, Keon Johnson, Moses Moody, and Jordan Poole that would be quite the accomplishment.

    Golden State would have to match salaries - Wiseman and Poole - to absorb Ross. They move up in the draft and take Scottie Barnes (if available - its likely) at #5 and add a veteran shooter off the bench in Ross. They also go from 4.5 and 3.0 million contract guarantees on the #7 and #14 to just 5.5 million on the #5, saving them 2 million. They then have the chance to draft a solid player at #33 (deep draft) without any contract guarantee. If they come away from the draft with Terrence Ross, Scottie Barnes, Zaire Williams, and Isaiah Jackson I think they're very happy. Barnes could contribute immediately off the bench, Williams has the size to provide minutes when others need rest/games off, and Jackson would be replacing Wiseman obviously with far less potential but still a very athletic and raw big. Ross would give Golden State the chance to create another nightmare lineup of Steph/Klay/Dray/Ross/Wiggins, plus Ross has the athleticism to get to the rack when the defense spreads itself to far.

    The risk here for Orlando is Barnes becoming a superstar but Golden State is taking the same risk with Wiseman.
    I do not do it if I am Orlando because I think Wiseman's ceiling is a really good role player. Non-elite centers have such limited value, especially when they are not surrounded by elite talent. I can see Wiseman being good with a healthy Steph and Klay, but a less impactful player with Orlando's roster. Also, I really like Barnes.
    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius


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  3. #32
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    The Warriors give up way too much in that deal, IMO.

    Wiseman was the second pick in last year's draft. He's 19. He has more value (IMO) than Barnes-- by a fairly significant margin. The seventh pick and Jordan Poole, then, are far, far more valuable than Terrence Ross (who's okay, I guess, as a bench scorer) and the 33rd pick.

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  5. #33
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    The Warriors give up way too much in that deal, IMO.

    Wiseman was the second pick in last year's draft. He's 19. He has more value (IMO) than Barnes-- by a fairly significant margin. The seventh pick and Jordan Poole, then, are far, far more valuable than Terrence Ross (who's okay, I guess, as a bench scorer) and the 33rd pick.
    Also, the Warriors are shopping for a key component for a potential title run. Ross isn't that.
    Now begins the winter of our discombobulation.

  6. #34
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Also, the Warriors are shopping for a key component for a potential title run. Ross isn't that.
    Yep. The Warriors appear to be a pretty smart organization. They know their title window is now. They know they need substantial improvements.

    I'd be shocked to see the Warriors stand pat. I expect they'll acquire at least one star or two substantial upgrades. Wiseman seems like the likely cost of doing so.

  7. #35
    Member Rojo Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    The Warriors give up way too much in that deal, IMO.

    Wiseman was the second pick in last year's draft. He's 19. He has more value (IMO) than Barnes-- by a fairly significant margin. The seventh pick and Jordan Poole, then, are far, far more valuable than Terrence Ross (who's okay, I guess, as a bench scorer) and the 33rd pick.
    Well, Wiseman was the #2 in a much weaker class. I don't see how he has significantly more value than a guy who is more versatile on both ends of the court. Barnes is 6'9 with a 7'2 wingspan, he can guard almost every position and offensively he can even run the offense, as passing is one of his best attributes. Wiseman has the better scoring profile but Golden State doesnt need more scoring. Between Steph, Klay, and Wiggins there won't be a ton of looks. There are even articles about how Barnes has Draymond ability.

    Terrence Ross is one of the best bench shooters in the NBA. Golden State adding another marksman to play alongside the splash brothers would be a smart move. He allows them to be just as dangerous from the arc even when one of Steph or Klay are resting or out.

    Poole and Wiseman match Ross's salary. If it needs to balance more then Orlando throws in their '22 first, top 10 protected in '22 and '23 and becomes a '23 and '24 second if not conveyed by '23.

  8. #36
    Member Rojo Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoran View Post
    Yep. The Warriors appear to be a pretty smart organization. They know their title window is now. They know they need substantial improvements.

    I'd be shocked to see the Warriors stand pat. I expect they'll acquire at least one star or two substantial upgrades. Wiseman seems like the likely cost of doing so.
    He has to be. Their only other chips are Poole and their 2022 1st. They have already traded their 2024 1st so they can't trade away their 1st in 2023 or 2025.

    Golden State is already slated to be 25.2 million over the luxury cap and that doesnt include options on Lee, Mulder, and Payton which would add another 5.6 million which would put them 30 million over the luxury cap. Im not sure how they plan on making any significant changes outside of the draft or signing aging vet stars to league minimum deals. They arent trading Steph, Klay, or Dray and Wiggins still carries a 2/65 million tag with him. Going to be difficult to move him in any deal without attaching something valuable to it or bringing back something another team needs to rid.

  9. #37
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Also, the Warriors are shopping for a key component for a potential title run. Ross isn't that.
    Kevin Durant isnt walking through that door. Who are they expecting to get and how are they expecting to get them? I know teams have incredibly smart and talented individuals who manage and work the cap but they are pretty maxed out. Even if they tried to flip the 7 and 14 (one or both) they'd still have to move out salary, either Wiggins, or a combination of Wiseman and Looney.

  10. #38
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo Rijo View Post
    Kevin Durant isnt walking through that door. Who are they expecting to get and how are they expecting to get them? I know teams have incredibly smart and talented individuals who manage and work the cap but they are pretty maxed out. Even if they tried to flip the 7 and 14 (one or both) they'd still have to move out salary, either Wiggins, or a combination of Wiseman and Looney.
    They'll get somebody pretty good. They'd be kind of fascinating if they could make Sabonis happen.
    Now begins the winter of our discombobulation.

  11. #39
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    The Warriors give up way too much in that deal, IMO.

    Wiseman was the second pick in last year's draft. He's 19. He has more value (IMO) than Barnes-- by a fairly significant margin. The seventh pick and Jordan Poole, then, are far, far more valuable than Terrence Ross (who's okay, I guess, as a bench scorer) and the 33rd pick.
    Wiseman would not be sniffing #2 in this years draft....nor would he be #2 in a redraft.
    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

  12. #40
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Wiseman would not be sniffing #2 in this years draft....nor would he be #2 in a redraft.
    That is low hanging fruit. Not sure Wiseman would be top 10 in a redraft…for last year. Where would estimate Edwards and Ball would be picked in this year’s draft?

  13. #41
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Wiseman would not be sniffing #2 in this years draft....nor would he be #2 in a redraft.
    I'm thinking he'd go #5 in this draft. His per 36 was 19.3/9.7 with 1.6 blocks. Also, I'm not wild about the cliff in this draft after the #4 pick.
    Last edited by M2; 07-15-2021 at 11:52 PM.
    Now begins the winter of our discombobulation.

  14. #42
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Betterread View Post
    That is low hanging fruit. Not sure Wiseman would be top 10 in a redraft…for last year. Where would estimate Edwards and Ball would be picked in this year’s draft?
    I think Ball has a pretty strong case for #1 if it is based on what we know from last year. Are any of this years guys going to put up 16/6/6 (Per 36 numbers of 20/8/8) and shoot 35% from 3 as a 6'6" guard that can play on and off ball? If you watch LaMelo, he is still very raw but he has the ability to change a game beyond the boxscore numbers with his ability to play at pace and move the ball. I think Edwards would likely go in the #7-#10 range. Wiseman probably in a similar range. In regards to Wiseman, it would depend on how many teams would be willing the draft a more traditional Center in the lottery, as he would clearly be behind Mobley.
    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

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  16. #43
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    I think Ball has a pretty strong case for #1 if it is based on what we know from last year. Are any of this years guys going to put up 16/6/6 (Per 36 numbers of 20/8/8) and shoot 35% from 3 as a 6'6" guard that can play on and off ball? If you watch LaMelo, he is still very raw but he has the ability to change a game beyond the boxscore numbers with his ability to play at pace and move the ball. I think Edwards would likely go in the #7-#10 range. Wiseman probably in a similar range. In regards to Wiseman, it would depend on how many teams would be willing the draft a more traditional Center in the lottery, as he would clearly be behind Mobley.
    Interesting take. I am curious to see if Cunningham, Mosley and Suggs will have stronger rookie years than Ball, Edwards and Wiseman.
    I am surprised Green has passed Suggs. Whatever the stats say, GS is down on Wiseman. Down as in they will trade him before a decision on his first three years.

  17. #44
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo Rijo View Post
    Well, Wiseman was the #2 in a much weaker class. I don't see how he has significantly more value than a guy who is more versatile on both ends of the court. Barnes is 6'9 with a 7'2 wingspan, he can guard almost every position and offensively he can even run the offense, as passing is one of his best attributes. Wiseman has the better scoring profile but Golden State doesnt need more scoring. Between Steph, Klay, and Wiggins there won't be a ton of looks. There are even articles about how Barnes has Draymond ability.

    Terrence Ross is one of the best bench shooters in the NBA. Golden State adding another marksman to play alongside the splash brothers would be a smart move. He allows them to be just as dangerous from the arc even when one of Steph or Klay are resting or out.

    Poole and Wiseman match Ross's salary. If it needs to balance more then Orlando throws in their '22 first, top 10 protected in '22 and '23 and becomes a '23 and '24 second if not conveyed by '23.
    We disagree pretty strongly on the value of Wiseman and Barnes.

    Barnes is a phenomenal defensive player, but there are serious questions about all of his offensive game. Those types of players tend to struggle for years to establish/ learn how to help on the offensive side.


    We also disagree on the value of Ross.

    His offensive rating last year was 103. For his career, he's at 105. Defensively, he was a sieve (115 last season).

    The Warriors, as a championship-chasing club, can find that on the open market for cheaper than Ross's $12.5M-- and have the draft picks and players to get it too.
    Wiseman, for all his warts, has a floor of what he provided last season. Which is much more than I think Barnes will provide over the next couple of years.
    Last edited by Bourgeois Zee; 07-16-2021 at 12:49 PM.

  18. #45
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    Re: 2021 NBA Draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Wiseman, for all his warts, has a floor of what he provided last season. Which is much more than I think Barnes will provide over the next couple of years.
    I am not sure if you are correct or incorrect, but I do think there is a ton of nuance in those situations depending on where Barnes lands. I think Wiseman benefits and will continue to benefit if he remains with GSW to play with guys like Steph and Draymond....those two guys are just going to make easier to highlight his strengths while hiding his weaknesses. If Barnes lands with Orlando or another non playoff team, he will not have that luxury.
    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius


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