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Thread: worst reds opening day starters ever

  1. #31
    Member KeefeCato's Avatar
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    My vote as the Reds worst ever opening game starter goes to Fryman, mainly for the reasons other posters have mentioned. It wasn't his fault that Bob Howsam made an idiotic trade, gving away Tony Perez, the team leader, for a 37 year old pitcher with a lot of mileage, but he quit on the team.
    I loved WrongVerb's post listing all of the Reds opening game starting pitchers. I did notice one oddity. A team usually has its ace start on opening day. In 1940, the defending NL champs did not have as their opening day starter Bucky Walters, who had been the NL MVP in 1939, leading the NL in wins with 27, in ERA with 2.29, and in strikeouts and inning pitched. Paul Derringer got the opening day nod. Same situation the following season. The Reds were the defending world champions. In 1940 Walters had again lead the NL in wins [22] and ERA [2.48] and inning pitched, and he had been great in the World Series, going 2-0 with a 1.50 ERA. Again Derringer was the opening day starter.
    Paul Derringer was a very good starting pitcher. He won 25 games in 1939 and was a 20 game winner again in 1940, but had the NL had a Cy Young award in those seasons, Walters clearly would have been the Cy Young winner each season. In both the 1939 and the 1940 World Series Derringer was the Reds starter in game one of the World Series, with Walters starting game two. I've never read an explanation as to why Reds manager Bill McKecknie apparently regarded Derringer as his ace.
    Yes Fryman wins hands down. It doesn't matter how bad some of the other guys were. Also that had to be a slap in the face to Norman, Nolan and Billingham. Who had all been with the team for several years for Sparky to hand the ball to that clown Fryman. Even Zachry was coming off a fine rookie season. I know it was probably orders from above and Fryman had a good 76 season and all. But they had to justify trading away Perez.

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    RedsBaron (09-15-2021)


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  4. #32
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    Quote Originally Posted by KeefeCato View Post
    Yes Fryman wins hands down. It doesn't matter how bad some of the other guys were. Also that had to be a slap in the face to Norman, Nolan and Billingham. Who had all been with the team for several years for Sparky to hand the ball to that clown Fryman. Even Zachry was coming off a fine rookie season. I know it was probably orders from above and Fryman had a good 76 season and all. But they had to justify trading away Perez.
    I think they were trying to convince themselves and us, that they replaced Don Gullet as the team's ace with Fryman. It turned into a domino effect as Nolan and Billingham were on their last legs anyway and it all turned into a total mess right after the Seaver trade when we had to learn the names of the rest of the pitching staff.

    The most amazing thing to me is the Reds were able to finish 2nd that season, 2nd the next and 1st in 1979 after a total revamp of the pitching staff in middle of 1977 season. This is without using free agency. That's difficult to do today, it seemed impossible back then.

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  6. #33
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    I think they were trying to convince themselves and us, that they replaced Don Gullet as the team's ace with Fryman. It turned into a domino effect as Nolan and Billingham were on their last legs anyway and it all turned into a total mess right after the Seaver trade when we had to learn the names of the rest of the pitching staff.

    The most amazing thing to me is the Reds were able to finish 2nd that season, 2nd the next and 1st in 1979 after a total revamp of the pitching staff in middle of 1977 season. This is without using free agency. That's difficult to do today, it seemed impossible back then.
    Bob Howsam clearly was the Reds greatest ever GM, and the BRM had some age on it by the middle of the 1970s, but the refusal of Reds management to adapt to free agency, and a series of bad moves, kept the Reds dominance from lasting longer. Imagine if the Reds had kept Perez and had instead traded Dan Driessen to the A's for Vida Blue, a trade which surely Bowie Kuhn would have upheld. Imagine if the Reds had also kept Mike Caldwell, who had a few good seasons ahead of him. Imagine the Reds had signed a free agent or two, such as Goose Gossage after the 1977 season. Imagine if the Reds had done a better job of drafting talent during the 1970s. Imagine if Dick Wagner had never been named as Howsam's replacement and had instead been given a job as a parking lot attendant.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  8. #34
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Bob Howsam clearly was the Reds greatest ever GM, and the BRM had some age on it by the middle of the 1970s, but the refusal of Reds management to adapt to free agency, and a series of bad moves, kept the Reds dominance from lasting longer. Imagine if the Reds had kept Perez and had instead traded Dan Driessen to the A's for Vida Blue, a trade which surely Bowie Kuhn would have upheld. Imagine if the Reds had also kept Mike Caldwell, who had a few good seasons ahead of him. Imagine the Reds had signed a free agent or two, such as Goose Gossage after the 1977 season. Imagine if the Reds had done a better job of drafting talent during the 1970s. Imagine if Dick Wagner had never been named as Howsam's replacement and had instead been given a job as a parking lot attendant.
    I personally don't think it's a given that they would've continued to dominate. 2 reasons. One is Joe Morgan. I really felt his free fall after 1976 was going to happen no matter what. Joe was great for the Reds but he had to be in a most perfect situation to put up the numbers he did during his MVP seasons. He never came close to those numbers until his 12th season in MLB and that's because he was surrounded by the best batting order ever. I think Morgan though was on a sharp downward spiral when 1977 came along and he wouldn't be the same after. The 2nd is the relief corp and and how Sparky liked to use them. When he had 4 that he could trust, he was at his best. But Carroll was gone after 75 and Eastwick and McEanany never came close to what they were after that which was pretty normal for relief pitchers. I don't think Sparky could work his magic with only Borbon and Gossett(who you proposed they sign).

    I also think that George Steinbrenner, probably seething after the sweep of 76, wasn't going to let the Reds dominate anymore, he would spend enough to make sure of that including stripping the Reds of some of their corp players if need be.

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    westofyou (09-15-2021)

  10. #35
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    He was no Dick Pole, I'll tell you that much.
    Dick Such was better

  11. #36
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Ky Fried Redleg View Post
    What Reds' opening day starting pitcher died in a tragic accident on the same month and day(different year) as former Reds' players Joe Morgan , Champ Summers , and Clay Kirby?
    Who was it?

  12. #37
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    cory lidle?

  13. #38
    Knowledge Is Good Big Klu's Avatar
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    Re: worst reds opening day starters ever

    Quote Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
    Who was it?
    Cory Lidle
    Eric Stratton, Rush Chairman. Damn glad to meet ya.


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