Pitching Development - Throw it on the wall and see if it sticks

[StatJunkie]

This I can tell you with first hand experience.

Reds development philosophy has been to get upside arms and then.

1 - Tell them to throw strikes down the middle ( reduce walks and missing spot ‘middle “ might paint the black”

2 - Quota on offspeed speaches
Pitches not matter what needs to be fixed.

3 - Baby sit them and move them along as openings arise .

4 - once they get closer promote on need and merit.

5 - important guys reach the Majors not know how to pitch to major league hitters, nor do they have the pitches ready do do so so they either over throw, pitch away from contact (Walks) Once forced to pitch down the middle (Then HR start ) and everyone says he is a AAAA pitcher.

They then get moved to the bullpen or are sent walking.

Amir never had a chance, Romano and many others the same. The workers away from the Reds that find their own development people start making those changes and transform into something.

Not many have what it takes upstairs this can also be taught but rough road if just baby sat.

Note: AAA is used for final Merit but is the most important development stage but not being used as such (This is where the last failure nails their destiny.

I will use Tyler Mahle as example

Lower levels - Fastball only with command that put him ahead of most others. No hitter and was asked why no off speed “Answer was they could not hit my fastball” Result based but not getting better.

AA - Only worked lower Zone and as soon as hitters figured it out started slapping outside corner into right field.

Offseason I told him to work all 4 quadrants and thats when he got to work with Mesoraco (Spelling) this was when his fastball with Command made easy work of AA hitters (Still all Fastballs and horrible Secondary pitches)

On to AAA - Lived off plus Fastball command and no off speed. Coaching reports said working on off speed but he said that was not true. He could still get away with mixing speeds with his 4 seam .

What was missing besides lack of good coaching. He should have been told forget results and use 80% Secondary.

AAA is also not any indication because the only place to practice pitching is in the majors and that starts about 1 to 2 months into the season.

Tyler goes to the majors - Rookie year is dominating first half Fastball only because of same (Mix speeds and move up and down) Command of 4 seam . He then had shoulder strain which nobody was told (Velocity went down and command was gone) Coaching “Interim” just sent him down and you guys said all kinds of misinformed stuff. Because you don’t know.

AAA at 85 and he dominated hurt, this caused a other muscles to compensate and additional injuries. They could have finished him.

He finally on his own knew that he had to add Secondary and has work hard. Splitter for changeup and now cutter and refining slider. Still a work in progress but all should have started in AAA.

When you see his pitch count blow up early it’s because his 4 seem is so hard on hitters but once gets 2 k’s does not have a KKK pitch same goes early 4 seem is too strong to get balls put in play.

Even though baseball today if a pitcher keeps team in game through 5 he did his job. He is just about ready with Secondary to control this part of the game.

I know I talked about Tyler Mahle but he is my best example of failed minor league development and guys being forced to figure it out in front of fans in the majors where there is no room to work on things. Between games is only recovery and arm care.

Extra days do give a bullpen day but also increase chance of injury along with loss of rhythm.

[REDREAD]

That was an interesting post. Seems to align with what we have seen the last decade or so. Reds can not develop pitchers. Yes, a few exceptions, but their minor league strategy seems to be a mess. Most of the young guys that have had success (Disco and Castillo) have come from other organizations and were close to the majors. Someone else did a lot of work already.

[Old school 1983]

This I can tell you with first hand experience.

Reds development philosophy has been to get upside arms and then.

1 - Tell them to throw strikes down the middle ( reduce walks and missing spot ‘middle “ might paint the black”

2 - Quota on offspeed speaches
Pitches not matter what needs to be fixed.

3 - Baby sit them and move them along as openings arise .

4 - once they get closer promote on need and merit.

5 - important guys reach the Majors not know how to pitch to major league hitters, nor do they have the pitches ready do do so so they either over throw, pitch away from contact (Walks) Once forced to pitch down the middle (Then HR start ) and everyone says he is a AAAA pitcher.

They then get moved to the bullpen or are sent walking.

Amir never had a chance, Romano and many others the same. The workers away from the Reds that find their own development people start making those changes and transform into something.

Not many have what it takes upstairs this can also be taught but rough road if just baby sat.

Note: AAA is used for final Merit but is the most important development stage but not being used as such (This is where the last failure nails their destiny.

I will use Tyler Mahle as example

Lower levels - Fastball only with command that put him ahead of most others. No hitter and was asked why no off speed “Answer was they could not hit my fastball” Result based but not getting better.

AA - Only worked lower Zone and as soon as hitters figured it out started slapping outside corner into right field.

Offseason I told him to work all 4 quadrants and thats when he got to work with Mesoraco (Spelling) this was when his fastball with Command made easy work of AA hitters (Still all Fastballs and horrible Secondary pitches)

On to AAA - Lived off plus Fastball command and no off speed. Coaching reports said working on off speed but he said that was not true. He could still get away with mixing speeds with his 4 seam .

What was missing besides lack of good coaching. He should have been told forget results and use 80% Secondary.

AAA is also not any indication because the only place to practice pitching is in the majors and that starts about 1 to 2 months into the season.

Tyler goes to the majors - Rookie year is dominating first half Fastball only because of same (Mix speeds and move up and down) Command of 4 seam . He then had shoulder strain which nobody was told (Velocity went down and command was gone) Coaching “Interim” just sent him down and you guys said all kinds of misinformed stuff. Because you don’t know.

AAA at 85 and he dominated hurt, this caused a other muscles to compensate and additional injuries. They could have finished him.

He finally on his own knew that he had to add Secondary and has work hard. Splitter for changeup and now cutter and refining slider. Still a work in progress but all should have started in AAA.

When you see his pitch count blow up early it’s because his 4 seem is so hard on hitters but once gets 2 k’s does not have a KKK pitch same goes early 4 seem is too strong to get balls put in play.

Even though baseball today if a pitcher keeps team in game through 5 he did his job. He is just about ready with Secondary to control this part of the game.

I know I talked about Tyler Mahle but he is my best example of failed minor league development and guys being forced to figure it out in front of fans in the majors where there is no room to work on things. Between games is only recovery and arm care.

Extra days do give a bullpen day but also increase chance of injury along with loss of rhythm.

Ok. So who are you?

[InsaneinthBrame]

That was an interesting post. Seems to align with what we have seen the last decade or so. Reds can not develop pitchers. Yes, a few exceptions, but their minor league strategy seems to be a mess. Most of the young guys that have had success (Disco and Castillo) have come from other organizations and were close to the majors. Someone else did a lot of work already.

Cingrani was another pitcher that lived on his fastball and never really developed secondary stuff.

Leake was another pitcher who knew how to pitch before being drafted

[StatJunkie]

Ok. So who are you?

Can’t really do that but not a player though. Just enjoy this forum “Mostly”

I try not to post but sometimes need to vent. The guys get a very small window to complete their life long dream and the littlest mistakes in how they are handled decides it all.

[westofyou]

Real problem is the Reds haven't successfully developed pitching since the WW2.

Small Parks, offense and a fanbase that appreciates offense more than the other aspects of the game due to the teams ability to churn out hitters galore.

[Rojo Rijo]

Very interesting, so it seems Tyler Mahle, who was the one SP I had to concede on as far as guys the Reds have actually developed over the last 15 years no named Cueto, actually had to pretty much do it on his own....

Seems it is an organizational failure huh? But no, they're not failing because the Reds can't develop them they're failing because the Reds moved them up too quickly. They should spend more time not getting developed.

It's ridiculous how visible this is, even to the untrained baseball eye.

This is my point with Lodolo and Greene. Im not arguing they dont need more development, they do. I'm arguing that them pitching at the ML level in 2022 is not "rushing" them. My very strong opinion is supported by my other opinion which is that I find the Reds development of pitchers worthless and a flat out failure. Hopefully both of them have taken it upon themselves to assist in their development.

[RedsFanInMS]

Real problem is the Reds haven't successfully developed pitching since the WW2.

Small Parks, offense and a fanbase that appreciates offense more than the other aspects of the game due to the teams ability to churn out hitters galore.

This^. The Reds have developed plenty of position players, especially hitters. Pitching development, however, has been sparse. Since I can really remember (1978 or so), Mario Soto, Tom Browning, Johnny Cueto, and Homer Bailey are the only legit starting pitchers developed out of our system. That's not good for a 44 year period.

[Big Klu]

This^. The Reds have developed plenty of position players, especially hitters. Pitching development, however, has been sparse. Since I can really remember (1978 or so), Mario Soto, Tom Browning, Johnny Cueto, and Homer Bailey are the only legit starting pitchers developed out of our system. That's not good for a 44 year period.

They also developed Joaquin Andujar, but they traded him away before he got the call.

[Bourgeois Zee]

This opinion depends entirely on how you look at pitching development and what you consider home-grown and/or produced talent.

It seems odd to complain about pitcher development after the 2021 season-- a year in which Vlad Gutierrez, Tony Santillan, Dauri Moreta, and Reiver San Martin all contributed positive innings for the parent club. All were undeniably homegrown. Add in TeJay Antone and Tyler Mahle to that list. Luis Castillo, Lucas Sims, and Art Warren are successes who undeniably developed as Reds-- does Cincinnati get credit for them? Michael Lorenzen and Amir Garrett struggled this year-- but they have years of past success as relief arms.

Not every prospect is going to pan out. With pitchers, it's even more of a crapshoot. But in 2021, the Reds seemed to have some real success in their development on that side of the dais.

[StatJunkie]

This opinion depends entirely on how you look at pitching development and what you consider home-grown and/or produced talent.

It seems odd to complain about pitcher development after the 2021 season-- a year in which Vlad Gutierrez, Tony Santillan, Dauri Moreta, and Reiver San Martin all contributed positive innings for the parent club. All were undeniably homegrown. Add in TeJay Antone and Tyler Mahle to that list. Luis Castillo, Lucas Sims, and Art Warren are successes who undeniably developed as Reds-- does Cincinnati get credit for them? Michael Lorenzen and Amir Garrett struggled this year-- but they have years of past success as relief arms.

Not every prospect is going to pan out. With pitchers, it's even more of a crapshoot. But in 2021, the Reds seemed to have some real success in their development on that side of the dais.

[Bourgeois Zee]

This^. The Reds have developed plenty of position players, especially hitters. Pitching development, however, has been sparse. Since I can really remember (1978 or so), Mario Soto, Tom Browning, Johnny Cueto, and Homer Bailey are the only legit starting pitchers developed out of our system. That's not good for a 44 year period.

Charlie Liebrandt says hi, while winning 25 games with an 80 mph fastball.

Mike LaCoss was a league average-ish SP for 15 seasons.

[StatJunkie]

This opinion depends entirely on how you look at pitching development and what you consider home-grown and/or produced talent.

It seems odd to complain about pitcher development after the 2021 season-- a year in which Vlad Gutierrez, Tony Santillan, Dauri Moreta, and Reiver San Martin all contributed positive innings for the parent club. All were undeniably homegrown. Add in TeJay Antone and Tyler Mahle to that list. Luis Castillo, Lucas Sims, and Art Warren are successes who undeniably developed as Reds-- does Cincinnati get credit for them? Michael Lorenzen and Amir Garrett struggled this year-- but they have years of past success as relief arms.

Not every prospect is going to pan out. With pitchers, it's even more of a crapshoot. But in 2021, the Reds seemed to have some real success in their development on that side of the dais.

I do have to agree with you almost completely. Last year almost make my points old news. I don’t know if Boddy had any impact or not, had nothing to do with Tyler Mahle that’s forsure.

Derek Johnson is amazing what he has done for all the pitchers veterans and the kids coming up. We are so lucky he and his staff are there.

[Old school 1983]

Can’t really do that but not a player though. Just enjoy this forum “Mostly”

I try not to post but sometimes need to vent. The guys get a very small window to complete their life long dream and the littlest mistakes in how they are handled decides it all.

Fair enough. Idk how MLB works, but a couple of my buddies got jobs in the NFL during/after law school, and there were pretty strict agreements prohibiting posting on forums. I can’t imagine it being different, but you never know. But if you have that insider knowledge, it seems to be that a spaghetti against the wall approach was used. Which is a massive bummer.

[Rojo Rijo]

This opinion depends entirely on how you look at pitching development and what you consider home-grown and/or produced talent.

It seems odd to complain about pitcher development after the 2021 season-- a year in which Vlad Gutierrez, Tony Santillan, Dauri Moreta, and Reiver San Martin all contributed positive innings for the parent club. All were undeniably homegrown. Add in TeJay Antone and Tyler Mahle to that list. Luis Castillo, Lucas Sims, and Art Warren are successes who undeniably developed as Reds-- does Cincinnati get credit for them? Michael Lorenzen and Amir Garrett struggled this year-- but they have years of past success as relief arms.

Not every prospect is going to pan out. With pitchers, it's even more of a crapshoot. But in 2021, the Reds seemed to have some real success in their development on that side of the dais.

-Reiver Sanmartin had 3 years of pitching/development with the Rangers and Yankees before coming to the Reds, where he has had 2 years of pitching/development. Not saying the Reds didnt contribute just saying he's not a great example of the argument at hand.
-Luis Castillo threw 380 minor league innings with SF/MIA before being traded to Cincinnati and throwing 80 before moving up, I have absolutely no idea how you can say he "undeniably" developed as a Red.
-Art Warren was with Seattle for 5 years before landing with Cincinnati in 2021. He's thrown a total of 37 innings in the Reds system.
-Lucas Sims was with Atlanta for 7 years before coming to Cincinnati where his ERA over the last 3 years has been 4.04, pretty much exactly what he was in Atlanta before they shipped him out in a pile of nothing for Adam Duvall, who now has a WS ring with Atlanta.
-Vlad was a very nice surprise this year but man, talk about a guy who struggled in the minors. His success was probably as big a surprise to the Reds as it was to us fans.
-Santillan has been brought along nicely, despite a bump in the road at AA in 2019. He needs way more than 43 innings at the ML level before any real judgment can be given.
-Ditto for Tejay, and this means waiting until 2023 at the earliest.
-Even more so for Moreta. He had a great year at AA/AAA but he's only pitched 3.2 ML innings. Way too early to tell.

Mahle was the entire subject of the OP, which detailed that Tyler had to pretty much do things on his own to properly develop into a solid ML starting pitcher.