Turn Off Ads?
Page 7 of 23 FirstFirst ... 3456789101117 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 345

Thread: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

  1. #91
    Member Strikes Out Looking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    4,207

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    So I heard our old friend Leatherpants on MLB radio this morning. He's all in with the owners - and clearly doesn't understand labor bargaining. His point was that the players never changed their demands and made new proposals from last summer on. Basically, he thought the players should negotiate with themselves.

    Until the owners realize they are going to be hit in the pocketbook, I don't see this ending - and that won't happen until closer to April. Losing a part of a season won't matter to them because they really don't care about the game.

  2. Likes:

    REDREAD (12-04-2021)


  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #92
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    40,728

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Strikes Out Looking View Post
    Until the owners realize they are going to be hit in the pocketbook, I don't see this ending - and that won't happen until closer to April. Losing a part of a season won't matter to them because they really don't care about the game.
    Losing part of a season may be ideal for them as long as they have enough games for playoffs which is where the big money is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I was wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Chip is right

  5. Likes:

    REDREAD (12-04-2021)

  6. #93
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    99

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongVerb View Post
    It might be better to not institute a hard floor, but rather, say for every dollar under some percentage of average team salary, that's a dollar that doesn't get shared in revenue. (Or maybe that's a dollar that goes to the union to distribute as they see fit.)
    Gets refunded to ticket season holders for the owner putting out a crappy product.

  7. Likes:

    REDREAD (12-04-2021)

  8. #94
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,173

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    I look at this a little differently from what has been expressed. The prevailing view seems to be that the small market teams would prefer to maximize profit rather than compete. I plead ignorance as to their intentions. That could be the case. On the other hand, players do age and expensive contracts don't age well either. I can understand how a team that can't afford to simply write off a bad contract and buy more FA's may decide to tear down a team and punt a couple of seasons in order to be more competitive in later years. It is one of the few strategies, investing in player development and continuous renewal, that small market teams have. Small market teams have learned long ago that they can't compete with large market teams for free agents. It's an auction and you will always be outbid for the most desirable players.

    Requiring small market teams to remain mediocre by instituting a salary floor could take away a part of that competitive strategy. I suspect that the result may not be exactly what the MLBPA wants. Instead of retaining expensive free agents or signing marginal ones, small market teams might prefer to give pre-arbitration players long, more expensive contracts in order to reach the salary floor.

  9. Likes:

    MikeS21 (12-03-2021)

  10. #95
    breath westofyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    51,796

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Nothing kills interest in a game more than business.

    The best thing about this lockout is it is the off season, ride it until February then really start to worry.

    The owners though are not realistic, they are making bank, values are unbelievable, the middle class player makes less, it's becoming the NBA, superstars on each roster making the bulk of the payroll and young guys and lifers filling in the gaps. Meanwhile owners ask for the players to give them stuff back.

    Laughable.

    The players are the game, owners need to see this, if we lose the first six weeks of the season the owners take the hit. They can't sell tickets during a lockout, can't market their investments (team and the players on that team) during the lockout, they stand to lose more than most. Count on some big market noise to end it sooner than the small market guys, they have more to lose in a more competitive sports landscape.

  11. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (12-08-2021),Chip R (12-04-2021),cumberlandreds (12-04-2021),Edd Roush (12-05-2021),Ron Madden (12-04-2021),Roy Tucker (12-05-2021)

  12. #96
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    27,336

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    A floor of say $100 million isn't going to help teams like ours to compete. We're still screwed. We need a cap too
    I agree that a floor is not the entire answer.
    But teams like Cleveland and Pittsburg are beyond ludicrous for only having a 40 million dollar payroll.
    Pennant races are now being influenced by who is tanking and who is not.
    Nick Krall is a clown. This franchise is a laughingstock.

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  13. #97
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    27,336

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Losing part of a season may be ideal for them as long as they have enough games for playoffs which is where the big money is.
    yep, that's what the covid season taught us. As long as the owners get their playoff money, they don't care about the regular season.
    I hope the season starts on time, but I doubt it.
    Nick Krall is a clown. This franchise is a laughingstock.

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  14. Likes:

    Chip R (12-04-2021),Sea Ray (12-04-2021)

  15. #98
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    7,390

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by RED VAN HOT View Post
    I look at this a little differently from what has been expressed. The prevailing view seems to be that the small market teams would prefer to maximize profit rather than compete. I plead ignorance as to their intentions. That could be the case. On the other hand, players do age and expensive contracts don't age well either. I can understand how a team that can't afford to simply write off a bad contract and buy more FA's may decide to tear down a team and punt a couple of seasons in order to be more competitive in later years. It is one of the few strategies, investing in player development and continuous renewal, that small market teams have. Small market teams have learned long ago that they can't compete with large market teams for free agents. It's an auction and you will always be outbid for the most desirable players.

    Requiring small market teams to remain mediocre by instituting a salary floor could take away a part of that competitive strategy. I suspect that the result may not be exactly what the MLBPA wants. Instead of retaining expensive free agents or signing marginal ones, small market teams might prefer to give pre-arbitration players long, more expensive contracts in order to reach the salary floor.
    You make a couple of assumptions that probably shouldn't be made in this comment.

    1.) All owners want to maximize profits. They've proven time and again that they truly don't care about the game. That said, you assume small market teams aren't making money hand over fist. Were owners to let the public see their (true) books and to add the valuation of the franchise to the ledger, I suspect you'd see that they absolutely can afford high-priced free agents. The issue is that they can't afford as many.

    2.) You assume that small market teams, with an influx of free agents, would remain mediocre. I definitely don't think you can make that claim. How good would Tampa be if they had to spend another $20M on players? That's a World Series favorite, I suspect. Cleveland could add multiple first division starters to a team that was near .500 last year and is bringing back a dominant ace from injury. Think they might be a bit better than mediocre? Oakland won 86 games last season with a relatively young roster. I'd argue that 90 games would have easily been within reach had they added $20M in free agents they could have afforded instead of tearing down their franchise. Even a team as bad as Baltimore could easily improve to near .500 with $63M worth of free agents and the talent they have coming in from the minor leagues.

    No, insisting teams attempt to compete improves the quality of the product. Too, it would allow for the vagaries of chance-- injury and poor seasons-- and front office skill-- choosing which free agents and players to focus on-- to enter more forcefully into today's game. Teams can still suck-- but now, they'll suck less. And those ultra high draft picks can be distributed more fairly. I'm tired of seeing Pittsburgh collect all the big draft talent, then screwing it up. I was tired when Houston did it. It's... dishonest. And it hurts the game.

  16. #99
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    21,054

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by RED VAN HOT View Post
    I was surprised that the owners even mentioned a salary floor. Other sports have a cap and not a floor.
    NFL has a floor

  17. Likes:

    RED VAN HOT (12-04-2021)

  18. #100
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    21,054

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    The large market oweners don't want the small market owners pocketing the revenue sharing money, so they want the salary floor to force spending it on the team. I think the floor goes more hand in hand with increasing revenue sharing than anything. It also will suppress spending at the top since those big markets wil have less to spend if they are sharing more of it.
    I can't imagine any group of owners giving a floor w/o a cap but of course the MLB owners have given in before like no other league

  19. #101
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    21,054

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    I agree that a floor is not the entire answer.
    But teams like Cleveland and Pittsburg are beyond ludicrous for only having a 40 million dollar payroll.
    Pennant races are now being influenced by who is tanking and who is not.
    It is ludicrous but it doesn't solve anything unless there's a cap. In football we can have "dynasties" in places like Green Bay, Pittsburgh and Kansas City. That is not possible in MLB. Here we have bad ownership, no doubt but our main problem is we can't spend like the elite teams in the sport

  20. Likes:

    REDREAD (12-05-2021)

  21. #102
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,518

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    NFL has a floor
    The NBA also has a floor

  22. #103
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,173

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    The NBA also has a floor
    I thought I might be on thin ice with that statement. I'll correct it to say that a floor and cap go hand in hand. Perhaps the likelihood of a cap to follow is one what makes the players union a little reticent.

  23. Likes:

    MoneyInTheBank (12-04-2021)

  24. #104
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,173

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    You make a couple of assumptions that probably shouldn't be made in this comment.

    1.) All owners want to maximize profits. They've proven time and again that they truly don't care about the game. That said, you assume small market teams aren't making money hand over fist. Were owners to let the public see their (true) books and to add the valuation of the franchise to the ledger, I suspect you'd see that they absolutely can afford high-priced free agents. The issue is that they can't afford as many.

    2.) You assume that small market teams, with an influx of free agents, would remain mediocre. I definitely don't think you can make that claim. How good would Tampa be if they had to spend another $20M on players? That's a World Series favorite, I suspect. Cleveland could add multiple first division starters to a team that was near .500 last year and is bringing back a dominant ace from injury. Think they might be a bit better than mediocre? Oakland won 86 games last season with a relatively young roster. I'd argue that 90 games would have easily been within reach had they added $20M in free agents they could have afforded instead of tearing down their franchise. Even a team as bad as Baltimore could easily improve to near .500 with $63M worth of free agents and the talent they have coming in from the minor leagues.

    No, insisting teams attempt to compete improves the quality of the product. Too, it would allow for the vagaries of chance-- injury and poor seasons-- and front office skill-- choosing which free agents and players to focus on-- to enter more forcefully into today's game. Teams can still suck-- but now, they'll suck less. And those ultra high draft picks can be distributed more fairly. I'm tired of seeing Pittsburgh collect all the big draft talent, then screwing it up. I was tired when Houston did it. It's... dishonest. And it hurts the game.
    Point 1. Winning does maximize profits. If the small market owners believed they could win by adding $20 million, they would do it. It would bring back greater returns. The problem is that they can't spend $20 million on a one year contract to a free agent that would make a difference. They must look out multiple years and hope the performance holds up for the length of the contract. If it doesn't, writing off the contracts is harder for a small market team. The Reds spent in the off season leading up to 2020. It didn't work out and now we are talking about how they can rid themselves of the likes of Moose and Shogo so that they can afford better free agents. Also, I don't claim that they are not making money, but I can claim that they are not making as much as the large market teams they must compete against for the free agents that would make a difference. The problem is the disparity in revenue. Focusing on the small market teams paying more is not the problem. By the way, I don't believe that the owners care nothing about the game. Tanking, however repugnant it might be, is a strategy not proof that they don't care about the game.

    Point 2. With an influx of top free agents, they probably would not remain mediocre, although there is no guarantee. The Padres went big and finished under .500. With an influx of lesser free agents, they probably would be mediocre. WOY makes the point that the top tier of players is making most of the money. I agree. Spending money on the lesser free agents does not necessarily translate to wins. Among the free agent class, the Reds must focus on role players and those that they believe are undervalued.

    I enjoy these discussions. I realize that I am at odds with many RZ posters who see ownership as rich, penurious, and greedy. I tend to see them at a disadvantage to competitors with the best strategy for competing to be the development of a superior minor league system especially in pitching.

  25. Likes:

    MikeS21 (12-04-2021)

  26. #105
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    31,089

    Re: MLB Lockout Off-Season 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Nothing kills interest in a game more than business.

    The best thing about this lockout is it is the off season, ride it until February then really start to worry.

    The owners though are not realistic, they are making bank, values are unbelievable, the middle class player makes less, it's becoming the NBA, superstars on each roster making the bulk of the payroll and young guys and lifers filling in the gaps. Meanwhile owners ask for the players to give them stuff back.

    Laughable.

    The players are the game, owners need to see this, if we lose the first six weeks of the season the owners take the hit. They can't sell tickets during a lockout, can't market their investments (team and the players on that team) during the lockout, they stand to lose more than most. Count on some big market noise to end it sooner than the small market guys, they have more to lose in a more competitive sports landscape.
    I’m interested in the comment that baseball is “becoming the NBA” in terms of superstar salaries (as compared with non-star players). NBA superstars are paid handsomely. But in terms of contractual salary commitments, top MLB players appear dominant.

    The highest NBA contract (aggregate salary) ever awarded is Giannis of the Bucks at $228 million.

    There have reportedly been 16 MLB contracts higher than that in aggregate dollars. They range from Robinson Cano at $240 million to Mike Trout $426 million. There reportedly have been eight MLB contracts of $300 million (30% of a billion dollars) or more.

    I’m sympathetic to a fairer system of pay for younger and mid-tier baseball players. But with no salary cap, and players asking for a higher luxury tax threshold, I also understand owners’ position as to aggregate salary expense.
    Last edited by Kc61; 12-04-2021 at 02:50 PM.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | cumberlandreds | Gallen5862 | Kinsm | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator