All REds tendered

[Old school 1983]

The problem is Iglesias, Bradley, Barnhart, Miley. And I’d argue Chapman, Cueto, Frazier, maybe others.

The Reds often seem to move assets when it’s less than optimal for team building.

If it “all worked out OK” it’s excusable, but it hasn’t all worked out ok.

No use crying over spilt milk. But every time they pass on the possibility of getting more or better players it’s a potential opportunity lost. And they add up.

Right now seems a pretty optimal time to move assets. Apparently the vast majority of the AL West wants the Reds top 3 pitchers. If they really aren’t going to try to make a real push this year, they need to move on. I think there is an opportunity here to get more in return than they ever will for these guys.

[Chip R]

Had a 3.00 ERA. On the pen that started the year. Yes, he would have been.

[Old school 1983]

Want to go by WAR? Noe only would have been behind Antone, Warren, and Santillian in the pen. Like I said to start the year at least, he’d have been a plus.

[Chip R]

Want to go by WAR? Noe only would have been behind Antone, Warren, and Santillian in the pen. Like I said to start the year at least, he’d have been a plus.

Noe was so good after the Reds released him, the Angels picked him back up and released him. So, yeah, sounds like a savior to me.

[Old school 1983]

Noe was so good after the Reds released him, the Angels picked him back up and released him. So, yeah, sounds like a savior to me.

Who said he was a savior? The contention was that he would have been a top member of a terrible bullpen.

[MoneyInTheBank]

We can all argue back and forth whether Noe Ramirez is/was any good but here's the bottom line, the scale we are grading on is:

At Worst, the Reds got an awful return for Iglesias
At Best, the Reds lucked into a decent return because they can't evaluate talent since they released the decent return

Neither end of the scale seems particularly defensible to me

[Old school 1983]

We can all argue back and forth whether Noe Ramirez is/was any good but here's the bottom line, the scale we are grading on is:

At Worst, the Reds got an awful return for Iglesias
At Best, the Reds lucked into a decent return because they can't evaluate talent since they released the decent return

Neither end of the scale seems particularly defensible to me

The good ole RZ staple of they suck but if they did something good, they got lucky.

It was pretty documented here by M2 and myself that up until last year, Ramirez and Iglesias were both performing around the same level. Granted Iglesias had the higher upside, the results were similar. Also note, last year was Iglesias’s best in terms of WAR. For whatever reason, he wasnt getting it done here. It seemed like he may have been a bit of a head case. Good on him for turning it around in LA. If he goes back the way of 2019 Iggy, the Halos will be in a world of hurt.

[MoneyInTheBank]

The good ole RZ staple of they suck but if they did something good, they got lucky.

It was pretty documented here by M2 and myself that up until last year, Ramirez and Iglesias were both performing around the same level. Granted Iglesias had the higher upside, the results were similar. Also note, last year was Iglesias’s best in terms of WAR. For whatever reason, he wasnt getting it done here. It seemed like he may have been a bit of a head case. Good on him for turning it around in LA. If he goes back the way of 2019 Iggy, the Halos will be in a world of hurt.

I don't think this is the mic drop you think it is...

You are arguing with people who are saying Ramirez sucks by saying he's good, the Reds just stupidly released him
So, actually, I'm not saying they did something good and got lucky. I'm saying no matter which side you are arguing, the Reds were incompetent

[Old school 1983]

I don't think this is the mic drop you think it is...

You are arguing with people who are saying Ramirez sucks by saying he's good, the Reds just stupidly released him
So, actually, I'm not saying they did something good and got lucky. I'm saying no matter which side you are arguing, the Reds were incompetent

I didn’t mic stop. The numbers aren’t going to lie to you. Based on WAR he’d have been the 3rd best option in the Reds pen all season. I think he’s a serviceable MLB reliever. That speaks more to how weak the Reds pen was last year than anything. They shouldn’t have released him. For the first 2-3 months of the season the pen was Antone and no one else. As far as Iglesias goes. We all know he was the more talented player. But he wasn’t getting the most out of those talents here. It seemed like there was some head butting around his usage. I’m glad he reached his potential in LA. But in Cincinnati he was basically turning in a Noe Ramirez like performance for 2019 and 2020. It was obvious that salary was a consideration in the move. But the Reds got a very useable MLB player in return and cut bait on him to give post hype prospects chances they likely didn’t deserve. That was incompetent. As far as trading Iglesias. I really can’t speak to the salary constraints given at the time. The trade may very well have been the most competent path to take given the situation. Who else do you cut/trade to save that money if that was the marching order. Teams have budgets…and given Iglesias’s 2019 and 2020 performances, moving him may have been to get the team into its budget constraint while doing the least amount of damage to the product on the field at the time.

[MoneyInTheBank]

I didn’t mic stop. The numbers aren’t going to lie to you. Based on WAR he’d have been the 3rd best option in the Reds pen all season. I think he’s a serviceable MLB reliever. That speaks more to how weak the Reds pen was last year than anything. They shouldn’t have released him. For the first 2-3 months of the season the pen was Antone and no one else. As far as Iglesias goes. We all know he was the more talented player. But he wasn’t getting the most out of those talents here. It seemed like there was some head butting around his usage. I’m glad he reached his potential in LA. But in Cincinnati he was basically turning in a Noe Ramirez like performance for 2019 and 2020. It was obvious that salary was a consideration in the move. But the Reds got a very useable MLB player in return and cut bait on him to give post hype prospects chances they likely didn’t deserve.

I haven't said a single word about whether Ramirez is good, bad or indifferent and I don't care to debate it

I'm saying both sides of this argument show a deep incompetence in the Reds Front Office so I find it a strange hill to die on

[Old school 1983]

I haven't said a single word about whether Ramirez is good, bad or indifferent and I don't care to debate it

I'm saying both sides of this argument show a deep incompetence in the Reds Front Office so I find it a strange hill to die on

Is it incompetence if you are told to cut salary by this amount but this date. Or is it trying the best you can with a crappy hand. That was my point.

[Roy Tucker]

I’m looking hard for something positive the Reds are doing but my rose colored glasses are in the shop. Cheap and poor judgement are a bad pair of characteristics for a front office to have.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Is it incompetence if you are told to cut salary by this amount but this date. Or is it trying the best you can with a crappy hand. That was my point.

When I say Front Office, that includes ownership.

But let's isolate Krall in regards to the Iglesias trade because he doesn't get a free pass...

He sent cash to the Angels in the trade and took on Noe Ramirez, then paid Noe to go away

So he failed to maximize the $ savings and either failed to identify Noe's talent or made a mistake in taking him on in the first place

[Kc61]

The good ole RZ staple of they suck but if they did something good, they got lucky.

It was pretty documented here by M2 and myself that up until last year, Ramirez and Iglesias were both performing around the same level. Granted Iglesias had the higher upside, the results were similar. Also note, last year was Iglesias’s best in terms of WAR. For whatever reason, he wasnt getting it done here. It seemed like he may have been a bit of a head case. Good on him for turning it around in LA. If he goes back the way of 2019 Iggy, the Halos will be in a world of hurt.

Nobody buys this. Iglesias was the superior reliever. Which is why Angels made the trade for him and thereby took on an additional $8 million of salary.

The trade was awful for the Reds, as many of us stated on the first day.

Iglesias - whom Reds dumped last December - just signed for $58 million guaranteed dollars.

[oregonred]

I’m looking hard for something positive the Reds are doing but my rose colored glasses are in the shop. Cheap and poor judgement are a bad pair of characteristics for a front office to have.

At risk of being a broken record... The Reds went into the 2021 offseason with a committed 2022 payroll of ~$122M. In the top half in baseball and FAR above what the market size dictates.

Poor contract, roster planning and arb raises get them to the 2021 level even with trading Barnhardt and waiving Miley. The payflex was stupidly maxed out following the 2019 offseason drunken sailor splurge and now they have 45M committed for two years of Moose and one year of Shogo.

So the cheap part isn't accurate but the poor judgment/planning is certainly valid.