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View Poll Results: Make Your Selections (no more than 10)

Voters
54. You may not vote on this poll
  • Bobby Abreu

    4 7.41%
  • Barry Bonds

    39 72.22%
  • Mark Buehrle

    4 7.41%
  • Roger Clemens

    39 72.22%
  • Carl Crawford

    0 0%
  • Prince Fielder

    1 1.85%
  • Todd Helton

    27 50.00%
  • Ryan Howard

    0 0%
  • Tim Hudson

    2 3.70%
  • Torii Hunter

    1 1.85%
  • Andruw Jones

    17 31.48%
  • Jeff Kent

    12 22.22%
  • Tim Lincecum

    3 5.56%
  • Justin Morneau

    0 0%
  • Joe Nathan

    0 0%
  • David Ortiz

    32 59.26%
  • Jonathan Papelbon

    0 0%
  • Jake Peavy

    0 0%
  • Andy Pettitte

    14 25.93%
  • A.J. Pierzynski

    0 0%
  • Manny Ramirez

    29 53.70%
  • Alex Rodriguez

    32 59.26%
  • Scott Rolen

    33 61.11%
  • Jimmy Rollins

    1 1.85%
  • Curt Schilling

    30 55.56%
  • Gary Sheffield

    24 44.44%
  • Sammy Sosa

    18 33.33%
  • Mark Teixeira

    2 3.70%
  • Omar Vizquel

    8 14.81%
  • Billy Wagner

    19 35.19%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

  1. #76
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    If guys who took PEDs are getting into the HOF then go ahead and vote all of them who deserve it in. And it shouldn't matter if the writers "like" the guy or not, or if he's a bad guy...there's lots of bad guys in the HOF. The only thing that should matter is their play. Put in Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Schilling, etc. And go ahead and put in Pete Rose. If the writers wanted to be serious about performance enhancer dudes not getting in, they needed to be consistent. Either none of them get in or every one who is worthy based on their play should get in. A HOF with David Ortiz and no Barry Bonds is a joke.


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  3. #77
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    It'll be interesting to see what happens with Bonds, Clemens and Schilling. Based solely on their playing careers, they're undoubtedly HOFers.

    Considering Harold Baines made it, that can be said about a lot of guys.

    I was really hoping Wagner would get a bigger boost year over year. His career doesn't get the respect it deserves and I'm pessimistic it will over the last few years he's on the ballot.

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  5. #78
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    The baseball writers have been insufferable today pimping Bonds and Clemens.

    But to them I ask of their Holiness..."To you righteous 65 percent or so who voted for Bonds and Clemens, how can 2/3's of you leave Sammy Sosa off your ballot?"
    I have an easy answer for that. Bonds and Clemens were HOF locks before they ever took a steroid (at least to the best of our knowledge). Sammy Sosa was a Gorman Thomas wannabe until he discovered the juice.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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  7. #79
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    It isn't who was a HOFer before they went full roid gut, it's that there's now someone in the hall who definitively took PEDs. The moral arbiter baseball writers have been gatekeeping us from these monsters, until now. Baseball journos can talk some pretzels, but I don't know how they can even justify this nonsense.

    Yes Bonds was other-wordly before roids. Sosa wasn't. But they played, people bought tickets to watch, and the game went on. At some point you have to just get the hell over it and acknowledge that it happened.

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  9. #80
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdaddy67 View Post
    It'll be interesting to see what happens with Bonds, Clemens and Schilling. Based solely on their playing careers, they're undoubtedly HOFers.

    Considering Harold Baines made it, that can be said about a lot of guys.

    I was really hoping Wagner would get a bigger boost year over year. His career doesn't get the respect it deserves and I'm pessimistic it will over the last few years he's on the ballot.

    Shortstops and relievers have never gotten enough love from the HOF.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Stray View Post
    It isn't who was a HOFer before they went full roid gut, it's that there's now someone in the hall who definitively took PEDs. The moral arbiter baseball writers have been gatekeeping us from these monsters, until now. Baseball journos can talk some pretzels, but I don't know how they can even justify this nonsense.

    Yes Bonds was other-wordly before roids. Sosa wasn't. But they played, people bought tickets to watch, and the game went on. At some point you have to just get the hell over it and acknowledge that it happened.
    I assume Sosa will get a veterans committee nod some day, but Bobby Abreu was every bit as good as Sosa and nobody thinks he roided up and he's on the ballot right now getting modest support. Dewey Evans was better and there's no great hue and cry for his induction. For that matter, Kenny Lofton, Andruw Jones and Jim Edmonds deserve entrance as much or more than Sosa. That's not even getting into Bonds and Manny.

    It's not like Sosa is a slam dunk even with the roids. He's got fame on his side, which always helps. That just put Papi over the hump. Yet there's a fair number of guys who'd have to make the HOF before Sosa would be the next guy on my list.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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  13. #82
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Shortstops and relievers have never gotten enough love from the HOF.
    Actually, according to the HOF's web site there are more shortstops in the HOF than any other position players, except for rightfielders.
    Now I realize that some players played multiple positions, and sometimes there can be an issue in classification (I usually think of Stan Musial as a leftfielder, but he played a lot in rightfield and at first base), but here are the numbers from the HOF:
    19 catchers
    25 first basemen
    20 second basemen
    17 third basemen
    26 shortstops
    23 leftfielders
    24 centerfielders
    27 rightfielders
    The web site also lists 84 pitchers but doesn't distinguish between starters and relievers.
    Third basemen are the most underrepresented position in the HOF.
    I also question how valuable relievers truly are. I get the argument that the innings they pitch are particularly "key" or "clutch" innings, but those innings are very limited. Look at the career WAR of even the best relievers. For example, of the 30 candidates on this year's writers ballot, Billy Wagner ranked 23rd with 27.7 career WAR. It's hard for me to argue he should be in the HOF when candidates with career WAR twice as high or more than Wagner do not get in.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 01-26-2022 at 11:37 AM.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  15. #83
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Stray View Post
    It isn't who was a HOFer before they went full roid gut, it's that there's now someone in the hall who definitively took PEDs. The moral arbiter baseball writers have been gatekeeping us from these monsters, until now. Baseball journos can talk some pretzels, but I don't know how they can even justify this nonsense.

    Yes Bonds was other-wordly before roids. Sosa wasn't. But they played, people bought tickets to watch, and the game went on. At some point you have to just get the hell over it and acknowledge that it happened.
    As I noted in a prior post on 12/21 on this thread, Ortiz denied taking PEDs as alleged in the leaked report, there were questions raised as to the accuracy of that test, and commissioner Manfred conceded it was possible Ortiz had not taken PEDs. Do I think Ortiz took PEDs? Sure. Does anyone, other than Ortiz, know for sure. Nope. My guess is that there are already several HOF members who juiced and were not caught.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  17. #84
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Actually, according to the HOF's web site there are more shortstops in the HOF than any other position players, except for rightfielders.
    Now I realize that some players played multiple positions, and sometimes there can be an issue in classification (I usually think of Stan Musial as a leftfielder, but he played a lot in rightfield and at first base), but here are the numbers from the HOF:
    19 catchers
    25 first basemen
    20 second basemen
    17 third basemen
    26 shortstops
    23 leftfielders
    24 centerfielders
    27 rightfielders
    The web site also lists 84 pitchers but doesn't distinguish between starters and relievers.
    Third basemen are the most underrepresented position in the HOF.
    I also question how valuable relievers truly are. I get the argument that the innings they pitch are particularly "key" or "clutch" innings, but those innings are very limited. Look at the career WAR of even the best relievers. For example, of the 30 candidates on this year's writers ballot, Billy Wagner ranked 23rd with 27.7 career WAR. It's hard for me to argue he should be in the HOF when candidates with career WAR twice as high or more than Wagner do not get in.
    Thanks for the info. Here is the list of HOF SS with their stats. As you can see, the vast majority are from years past, many years past. Very few modern ones, and the modern ones were all big bats, except for Ozzie Smith.

    There are plenty of SS from the last 40 years who were the best at their position for at last a decade, who are not on that list, because they were glove first SS. Those guys are the ones who don’t get any love.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml

    As for relievers, WAR doesn’t take into account the leverage of the innings pitched, so it has always been grossly unfair to relievers.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Thanks for the info. Here is the list of HOF SS with their stats. As you can see, the vast majority are from years past, many years past. Very few modern ones, and the modern ones were all big bats, except for Ozzie Smith.

    There are plenty of SS from the last 40 years who were the best at their position for at last a decade, who are not on that list, because they were glove first SS. Those guys are the ones who don’t get any love.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml

    As for relievers, WAR doesn’t take into account the leverage of the innings pitched, so it has always been grossly unfair to relievers.
    There was a dearth of star shortstops from the 1960s until Jeter, A-Rod and Nomar showed up. Ozzie, Larkin and Ripken were pretty much the whole show. Alan Trammell was an underrated gem. Robin Yount was only a star SS for a few years before he shifted to CF. Though they all got inducted.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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  20. #86
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    So it has more to do for a love of big bats than a disregard for shortstops? How many defense-first catchers or other players got in in modern times?


    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Thanks for the info. Here is the list of HOF SS with their stats. As you can see, the vast majority are from years past, many years past. Very few modern ones, and the modern ones were all big bats, except for Ozzie Smith.

    There are plenty of SS from the last 40 years who were the best at their position for at last a decade, who are not on that list, because they were glove first SS. Those guys are the ones who don’t get any love.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofstss.shtml

    As for relievers, WAR doesn’t take into account the leverage of the innings pitched, so it has always been grossly unfair to relievers.

  21. #87
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I have an easy answer for that. Bonds and Clemens were HOF locks before they ever took a steroid (at least to the best of our knowledge). Sammy Sosa was a Gorman Thomas wannabe until he discovered the juice.
    100%. Have you every looked at the pre-steroid # for Bonds and Clemens?

    Bonds .960 OPS/374HR/417SB (3) MVPs (8) Gold Gloves
    Clemens 218 Wins 2.56 ERA (1) MVP (4) Cy Youngs

    Before roids Sosa was a .780 bat and the only category he ever led the league in was strikeouts

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  23. #88
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    There was a dearth of star shortstops from the 1960s until Jeter, A-Rod and Nomar showed up. Ozzie, Larkin and Ripken were pretty much the whole show. Alan Trammell was an underrated gem. Robin Yount was only a star SS for a few years before he shifted to CF. Though they all got inducted.
    Trammell took way too long. As did Aparicio and Rizzuto. They should have been easy votes right away.

    Concepcion, Bowa and Visquel all belong, imo, as they were one of the best at their positions for over 10 seasons. That is my criteria for HOF.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

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  25. #89
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by UKFlounder View Post
    So it has more to do for a love of big bats than a disregard for shortstops? How many defense-first catchers or other players got in in modern times?
    Very few catchers last long enough to earn a HOF vote. It’s a brutal position. But there may be some who deserve to get in that are being ignored, I haven’t researched it.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

  26. #90
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Trammell took way too long. As did Aparicio and Rizzuto. They should have been easy votes right away.

    Concepcion, Bowa and Visquel all belong, imo, as they were one of the best at their positions for over 10 seasons. That is my criteria for HOF.
    I still don't get the case for Rizzuto outside of he was famous. Larry Bowa is a hard no. Awful hitter. JAWS ranks him as the 111th best SS of all-time, right between Jack Wilson and Rick Burleson. IOW, he was no Mike Bordick.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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