Falling off the ballot means they can't be elected for another 5 years at least, so that would be at least 4 elections where I don't have to hear about them.
Bobby Abreu
Barry Bonds
Mark Buehrle
Roger Clemens
Carl Crawford
Prince Fielder
Todd Helton
Ryan Howard
Tim Hudson
Torii Hunter
Andruw Jones
Jeff Kent
Tim Lincecum
Justin Morneau
Joe Nathan
David Ortiz
Jonathan Papelbon
Jake Peavy
Andy Pettitte
A.J. Pierzynski
Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez
Scott Rolen
Jimmy Rollins
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Sammy Sosa
Mark Teixeira
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
Falling off the ballot means they can't be elected for another 5 years at least, so that would be at least 4 elections where I don't have to hear about them.
A little note...
With yesterday's era committee's election of Gil Hodges, outside of currently eligible candidates, Roger Maris (the AL record holder for most HR's in a season) now has the distinction of being the player with the highest Vote % by the BBWAA not too be eventually elected via either the Veterans or Era Committees.
Maris topped out at 43.1% in 1998, in his 15th and final year of eligiblity for induction by the BBWAA. Steve Garvey is a close second topping out at 42.6%, in his 3rd of 15 tries on the BBWAA ballot. And Maury Wills is third, topping out at 40.6%, in his 4th of 15 tries on the BBWAA ballot.
7 of the 17 returning candidates for this year's BBWAA vote have already surpassed Maris' 43.1% figure (Schilling 71.1%, Bonds 61.8%, Clemens 61.6%, Rolen 52.9%, Omar Vizquel 52.6%, Billy Wagner 46.4%, and Todd Helton 44.9%) boding extremely well for their future chances of being elected either by the writers or an era committee. Gary Sheffield is also likely to surpass Maris' figure this go around, boding well for his future chances.
In addition, yesterday's elections will also likely strengthen the chances Fred McGriff is inducted by the "Today's Game" Committee next winter, he topped out at 39.8% in the BBWAA voting in his 10th and final eligible year in 2019. McGriff's first year of eligibility was 2010, he finished 11th in the voting that year with 21.5% of the vote. Since then 9 of the 10 players who placed ahead of him that year have been elected, McGwire is the lone player that finished above him that year who has not yet been elected. Of all the players in the history of the game that have an argument that their HOF chances were hurt by PED plagued players sticking around on the ballot, it would be McGriff.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
*BaseClogger* (12-07-2021)
This is why I don’t want them in. I want there there to be a continued discussion of why they aren’t in. I want kids to look them up, see their stats and ask why they aren’t in the HOF. Then someone can tell them why… because they cheated at baseball, they are cheaters and cheaters don’t belong in the HOF.
I disagree that history won’t look on their careers as any less for having not been elected. It will, as long as people understand why. Elect them in, even with an asterisk or a special section, and their cheating is rewarded, and its effect on the game diminished.
Hoping to change my username to 75769024
Chip R (12-07-2021)
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
We've all had this discussion many time before. I'll try to make it short.
Every MLB cheats to some degree. Wiping out the back line of the batter's box is cheating. As intelligent human beings with the power of reason, we determine the severity of each act of cheating and apply appropriate reaction for each one. For me, greenies never changed how the game was played, so they are not in the same category as steroids or other PED's used by these players.
The standard analogy used here is to traffic laws. Everyone breaks them, but we decide which ones deserve actual punishment. I see greenies like changing lanes without using your turn signal. Steroids are like drunk driving.
Hoping to change my username to 75769024
RedsManRick (12-07-2021),Revering4Blue (12-08-2021)
nope not going to agree with this. As someone whose almost ENTIRE family was destroyed by drugs including amphetamines, no. Greenies are/were absolutely a gateway to much worse. They destroy lives, even if their record book impact is debatable.
That said, both were accepted by baseball. Baseball knew. It doesn't get to take the "high road" now. The HOF knew. Everyone involved knew.
Put PED user on the plaque if necessary, or since it is a museum, maybe a PED exhibit is necessary to showcase another part of the history of the game, checkered with issues it eventually strived to overcome.
Bonds in. Clemens in. ARod in. Sosa in. Palmeiro in.
And for god's sake someone get Andruw Jones in. Just because.
Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.
Got some slots freed up thanks to guys coming off the ballot. I always go with 10. IMO, it's important they keep guys on the ballot because we've seen it take a decade for voters to give some guys proper consideration. For instance, we'd be deep in the thick of giving Kenny Lofton his proper consideration if he'd have survived past his first ballot.
Two guys who didn't make my ballot are Curt Schilling and Omar Vizquel. Schilling 100% deserves induction, but he said take his name off the ballot. That's not how it works, but I'm sick of trying to make a numbers case for a guy who's an absolute child. Some pretty seedy stuff has come up in connection to Vizquel. Just can't consider him at this moment until those things are resolved.
I've made peace of a sort with roids guys. My dividing line is do I think the guy would have made it without the juice. For instance, I don't think Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire would have been all that close without it. Yet Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were supreme talents who made poor choices after laying down the credentials for their entry. So I picked them. Manny Ramirez is the best pure hitter I've ever seen. So I'm picking him. I don't know that A-Rod ever played a clean game in his career. He may have been fully out of the bottle. But I don't know how to sort that out. Guy put up video game numbers. He'd have my vote.
Easy pick: Scott Rolen. He grades out better than the average HOF 3B. That's all I need. Put that guy in.
Others:
Billy Wagner - He's the best closer not in the HOF. Whether that deserves entrance is a fair argument on both sides. I lean toward yes because he was filthy.
Papi - I'm hanging a little extra on the "Fame" part of the title. Played huge in big games. Broke through into mainstream culture in a way few baseball players have this century. Perhaps blame it on Keenan Thompson.
Bobby Abreu - Is the guy who famously became the poster boy for most underappreciated player in baseball now the most underappreciated player on the HOF ballot? I think so.
Todd Helton - He was really excellent and a lot of people missed that because he was playing in Colorado. Also, gamesmanship here. Joey Votto is better and I want to be able to make the "if you put Todd Helton in ..." argument in the future.
Andruw Jones - I never was a huge Jones fan. Seemed overrated in his day. Not great at getting on base, and I discount heavily for that. Yet he was sick in the field (Devon White was better) and the power was legit.
Last edited by M2; 12-08-2021 at 11:09 PM.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
*BaseClogger* (12-08-2021),Chip R (12-10-2021),Revering4Blue (12-09-2021)
He rates low on the JAWS scale (81st among SPs). I kind of had him, Helton and Jones for my last two slots. I do think Pettitte deserves extra credit for his postseason work (19-11, 3.81, 276.2 IP). Honestly, I could be talked into any one of those three being ahead of the others.
I'm not a system player. I am a system.
Well I gave Tim Hudson a vote too so at least I'm consistent?
I'm a "vote for 10 every year" voter as well and think just about everybody ahead of Pettite on that JAWS pitchers list should be in the hall. Things seems slanted towards the hitters recently. There's going to be a real shortage of pitchers with the kind of counting stats Pettitte and Hudson amassed on future ballots.
It must be my bias showing, but I never thought of Mark Buehrle in the same echelon as Pettitte or Hudson, even though there he is sandwiched between the two on the JAWS list...
M2 (12-09-2021)
I am still pondering who I will vote for. I generally agreed with much of M2's post.
One candidate I am kicking around in my mind is Gary Sheffield. I was never particularly a Sheffield fan, I am aware of the PEDs allegations, I understand he was not regarded to be a good fielder, all of those issues. His career stats, at least on the surface, are HOF worthy: a .292 BA, .393 OBP, .514 SLG, 509 HRs, 1676 RBI, 1636 runs scored, 2689 hits. He won a batting title. He lead the league in OBP another season. He has a HOF Monitor Score of 158, well above the 100 score of the average member of the HOF, and has a HOF standards score of 61, above the 50 score of the average HOF member.
The ten hitters in baseball history most similar to Sheffield are, in order, Chipper Jones, Mel Ott, Reggie Jackson, Carolos Beltran, Junior Griffey, Fred McGriff, Miguel Cabrera, Mickey Mantle, Billy Williams and Frank Robinson. Seven of those guys are in the HOF, Cabrera will be, McGriff will probably inducted decades from now by a veterans committee, and Beltran had a great case until the Astros scandal allegations.
Sheffield's career WAR is 60.5, 18th all time among rightfielders (Baseball Reference.com lists Stan Musial as a rightfielder). The three rightfielders with a higher career WAR score than Sheffield who are not in the HOF are Shoeless Joe Jackson, and two Red Sox players: Dwight Evans and Reggie Smith.
Sheffield is held down by his reputation and his poor fielding stats. His defensive WAR score is negative 27.7. Yes, that's a terrible number, but I have always been somewhat skeptical of fielding stats.
However his offensive career WAR score is out of sight: 80.7, 6th all time among rightfielders. The only rightfielders in MLB history with a higher career WAR are Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Frank Robinson and Mel Ott. That says Hall of Famer to me.
Last edited by RedsBaron; 12-09-2021 at 07:31 PM. Reason: corrected typo; also clarified that he is sixth all time in oWAR for rightfielders.
"Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."
*BaseClogger* (12-09-2021),M2 (12-09-2021),Revering4Blue (12-09-2021),Ron Madden (12-09-2021),SirFelixCat (01-25-2022)
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