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  • Bobby Abreu

    4 7.41%
  • Barry Bonds

    39 72.22%
  • Mark Buehrle

    4 7.41%
  • Roger Clemens

    39 72.22%
  • Carl Crawford

    0 0%
  • Prince Fielder

    1 1.85%
  • Todd Helton

    27 50.00%
  • Ryan Howard

    0 0%
  • Tim Hudson

    2 3.70%
  • Torii Hunter

    1 1.85%
  • Andruw Jones

    17 31.48%
  • Jeff Kent

    12 22.22%
  • Tim Lincecum

    3 5.56%
  • Justin Morneau

    0 0%
  • Joe Nathan

    0 0%
  • David Ortiz

    32 59.26%
  • Jonathan Papelbon

    0 0%
  • Jake Peavy

    0 0%
  • Andy Pettitte

    14 25.93%
  • A.J. Pierzynski

    0 0%
  • Manny Ramirez

    29 53.70%
  • Alex Rodriguez

    32 59.26%
  • Scott Rolen

    33 61.11%
  • Jimmy Rollins

    1 1.85%
  • Curt Schilling

    30 55.56%
  • Gary Sheffield

    24 44.44%
  • Sammy Sosa

    18 33.33%
  • Mark Teixeira

    2 3.70%
  • Omar Vizquel

    8 14.81%
  • Billy Wagner

    19 35.19%
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Thread: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

  1. #16
    Member Kinsm's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Falling off the ballot means they can't be elected for another 5 years at least, so that would be at least 4 elections where I don't have to hear about them.


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  3. #17
    Member kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    More is lost by keeping Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, etc. from the HOF on the basis of their steroid use than is gained by keeping them out. History won't look on their careers as any lesser for having not been elected. Their statistics still count and their greatness as players still broadly recognized and appropriately caveated. However, by their absence they will maintain their place taking up an outsized part of the HOF conversation. Falling off the ballot will not remove them from the conversation nearly as much as electing them would.

    Don't let them speak at the inauguration ceremony. Put an asterisk on their plaque denoted them as having been caught cheating and/or implicated in the steroid era. Put them in a special Hall of Shame wing for all I care. But elect them for the sake of posterity, for properly telling the story of the era, and let us move on from it.

    For the record, I'm a big Hall guy and I voted:

    *** No Brainer
    ** Confident
    * Could be convinced otherwise

    Bonds ***
    Clemens ***
    Kent *
    Ortiz * (strong historical narrative value)
    Manny **
    A-Rod ***
    Rolen **
    Schilling ***
    Sheffield *
    Wagner * (I personally think closers are overrated, but if the broader community will elect them, he needs to be in)

    Under future consideration
    Abreu *
    Jones *
    Sosa *
    Agreed. They are and have been just clogging up the ballot. I’m sure it’s affected many other guys.

  4. #18
    Member Kinsm's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    A little note...

    With yesterday's era committee's election of Gil Hodges, outside of currently eligible candidates, Roger Maris (the AL record holder for most HR's in a season) now has the distinction of being the player with the highest Vote % by the BBWAA not too be eventually elected via either the Veterans or Era Committees.

    Maris topped out at 43.1% in 1998, in his 15th and final year of eligiblity for induction by the BBWAA. Steve Garvey is a close second topping out at 42.6%, in his 3rd of 15 tries on the BBWAA ballot. And Maury Wills is third, topping out at 40.6%, in his 4th of 15 tries on the BBWAA ballot.

    7 of the 17 returning candidates for this year's BBWAA vote have already surpassed Maris' 43.1% figure (Schilling 71.1%, Bonds 61.8%, Clemens 61.6%, Rolen 52.9%, Omar Vizquel 52.6%, Billy Wagner 46.4%, and Todd Helton 44.9%) boding extremely well for their future chances of being elected either by the writers or an era committee. Gary Sheffield is also likely to surpass Maris' figure this go around, boding well for his future chances.

    In addition, yesterday's elections will also likely strengthen the chances Fred McGriff is inducted by the "Today's Game" Committee next winter, he topped out at 39.8% in the BBWAA voting in his 10th and final eligible year in 2019. McGriff's first year of eligibility was 2010, he finished 11th in the voting that year with 21.5% of the vote. Since then 9 of the 10 players who placed ahead of him that year have been elected, McGwire is the lone player that finished above him that year who has not yet been elected. Of all the players in the history of the game that have an argument that their HOF chances were hurt by PED plagued players sticking around on the ballot, it would be McGriff.

  5. #19
    he/him *BaseClogger*'s Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    More is lost by keeping Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, etc. from the HOF on the basis of their steroid use than is gained by keeping them out. History won't look on their careers as any lesser for having not been elected. Their statistics still count and their greatness as players still broadly recognized and appropriately caveated. However, by their absence they will maintain their place taking up an outsized part of the HOF conversation. Falling off the ballot will not remove them from the conversation nearly as much as electing them would.

    Don't let them speak at the inauguration ceremony. Put an asterisk on their plaque denoted them as having been caught cheating and/or implicated in the steroid era. Put them in a special Hall of Shame wing for all I care. But elect them for the sake of posterity, for properly telling the story of the era, and let us move on from it.

    For the record, I'm a big Hall guy and I voted:

    *** No Brainer
    ** Confident
    * Could be convinced otherwise

    Bonds ***
    Clemens ***
    Kent *
    Ortiz * (strong historical narrative value)
    Manny **
    A-Rod ***
    Rolen **
    Schilling ***
    Sheffield *
    Wagner * (I personally think closers are overrated, but if the broader community will elect them, he needs to be in)

    Under future consideration
    Abreu *
    Jones *
    Sosa *
    I’m convinced you skipped over Pettitte’s name when voting, otherwise I find that to be a head scratcher…

  6. #20
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Agreed. They are and have been just clogging up the ballot. I’m sure it’s affected many other guys.
    HoF statistics are great if you can score votes and do something with those HoF stats. Clogging up the ballot isn’t that great to me.

  7. #21
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    I’m convinced you skipped over Pettitte’s name when voting, otherwise I find that to be a head scratcher…
    I did. I'd add him and drop Wagner.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  9. #22
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    History won't look on their careers as any lesser for having not been elected. Their statistics still count and their greatness as players still broadly recognized and appropriately caveated. However, by their absence they will maintain their place taking up an outsized part of the HOF conversation. Falling off the ballot will not remove them from the conversation nearly as much as electing them would.
    This is why I don’t want them in. I want there there to be a continued discussion of why they aren’t in. I want kids to look them up, see their stats and ask why they aren’t in the HOF. Then someone can tell them why… because they cheated at baseball, they are cheaters and cheaters don’t belong in the HOF.

    I disagree that history won’t look on their careers as any less for having not been elected. It will, as long as people understand why. Elect them in, even with an asterisk or a special section, and their cheating is rewarded, and its effect on the game diminished.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

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  11. #23
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    This is why I don’t want them in. I want there there to be a continued discussion of why they aren’t in. I want kids to look them up, see their stats and ask why they aren’t in the HOF. Then someone can tell them why… because they cheated at baseball, they are cheaters and cheaters don’t belong in the HOF.

    I disagree that history won’t look on their careers as any less for having not been elected. It will, as long as people understand why. Elect them in, even with an asterisk or a special section, and their cheating is rewarded, and its effect on the game diminished.
    Do greenies count as cheating?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  12. #24
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Do greenies count as cheating?
    We've all had this discussion many time before. I'll try to make it short.

    Every MLB cheats to some degree. Wiping out the back line of the batter's box is cheating. As intelligent human beings with the power of reason, we determine the severity of each act of cheating and apply appropriate reaction for each one. For me, greenies never changed how the game was played, so they are not in the same category as steroids or other PED's used by these players.

    The standard analogy used here is to traffic laws. Everyone breaks them, but we decide which ones deserve actual punishment. I see greenies like changing lanes without using your turn signal. Steroids are like drunk driving.
    Hoping to change my username to 75769024

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  14. #25
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    We've all had this discussion many time before. I'll try to make it short.

    Every MLB cheats to some degree. Wiping out the back line of the batter's box is cheating. As intelligent human beings with the power of reason, we determine the severity of each act of cheating and apply appropriate reaction for each one. For me, greenies never changed how the game was played, so they are not in the same category as steroids or other PED's used by these players.

    The standard analogy used here is to traffic laws. Everyone breaks them, but we decide which ones deserve actual punishment. I see greenies like changing lanes without using your turn signal. Steroids are like drunk driving.
    nope not going to agree with this. As someone whose almost ENTIRE family was destroyed by drugs including amphetamines, no. Greenies are/were absolutely a gateway to much worse. They destroy lives, even if their record book impact is debatable.

    That said, both were accepted by baseball. Baseball knew. It doesn't get to take the "high road" now. The HOF knew. Everyone involved knew.

    Put PED user on the plaque if necessary, or since it is a museum, maybe a PED exhibit is necessary to showcase another part of the history of the game, checkered with issues it eventually strived to overcome.

    Bonds in. Clemens in. ARod in. Sosa in. Palmeiro in.

    And for god's sake someone get Andruw Jones in. Just because.
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  15. #26
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Got some slots freed up thanks to guys coming off the ballot. I always go with 10. IMO, it's important they keep guys on the ballot because we've seen it take a decade for voters to give some guys proper consideration. For instance, we'd be deep in the thick of giving Kenny Lofton his proper consideration if he'd have survived past his first ballot.

    Two guys who didn't make my ballot are Curt Schilling and Omar Vizquel. Schilling 100% deserves induction, but he said take his name off the ballot. That's not how it works, but I'm sick of trying to make a numbers case for a guy who's an absolute child. Some pretty seedy stuff has come up in connection to Vizquel. Just can't consider him at this moment until those things are resolved.

    I've made peace of a sort with roids guys. My dividing line is do I think the guy would have made it without the juice. For instance, I don't think Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire would have been all that close without it. Yet Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were supreme talents who made poor choices after laying down the credentials for their entry. So I picked them. Manny Ramirez is the best pure hitter I've ever seen. So I'm picking him. I don't know that A-Rod ever played a clean game in his career. He may have been fully out of the bottle. But I don't know how to sort that out. Guy put up video game numbers. He'd have my vote.

    Easy pick: Scott Rolen. He grades out better than the average HOF 3B. That's all I need. Put that guy in.

    Others:

    Billy Wagner - He's the best closer not in the HOF. Whether that deserves entrance is a fair argument on both sides. I lean toward yes because he was filthy.

    Papi - I'm hanging a little extra on the "Fame" part of the title. Played huge in big games. Broke through into mainstream culture in a way few baseball players have this century. Perhaps blame it on Keenan Thompson.

    Bobby Abreu - Is the guy who famously became the poster boy for most underappreciated player in baseball now the most underappreciated player on the HOF ballot? I think so.

    Todd Helton - He was really excellent and a lot of people missed that because he was playing in Colorado. Also, gamesmanship here. Joey Votto is better and I want to be able to make the "if you put Todd Helton in ..." argument in the future.

    Andruw Jones - I never was a huge Jones fan. Seemed overrated in his day. Not great at getting on base, and I discount heavily for that. Yet he was sick in the field (Devon White was better) and the power was legit.
    Last edited by M2; 12-08-2021 at 11:09 PM.
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  17. #27
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Got some slots freed up thanks to guys coming off the ballot. I always go with 10. IMO, it's important they keep guys on the ballot because we've seen it take a decade for voters to give some guys proper consideration. For instance, we'd be deep in the thick of giving Kenny Lofton his proper consideration if he'd have survived past his first ballot.

    Two guys who didn't make my ballot are Curt Schilling and Omar Vizquel. Schilling 100% deserves induction, but he said take his name off the ballot. That's not how it works, but I'm sick of trying to make a numbers case for a guy who's an absolute child. Some pretty seedy stuff has come up in connection to Vizquel. Just can't consider him at this moment until those things are resolved.

    I've made peace of a sort with roids guys. My dividing line is do I think the guy would have made it without the juice. For instance, I don't think Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire would have been all that close without it. Yet Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were supreme talents who made poor choices after laying down the credentials for their entry. So I picked them. Manny Ramirez is the best pure hitter I've ever seen. So I'm picking him. I don't know that A-Rod ever played a clean game in his career. He may have been fully out of the bottle. But I don't know how to sort that out. Guy put up video game numbers. He'd have my vote.

    Easy pick: Scott Rolen. He grades out better than the average HOF 3B. That's all I need. Put that guy in.

    Others:

    Billy Wagner - He's the best closer not in the HOF. Whether that deserves entrance is a fair argument on both sides. I lean toward yes because he was filthy.

    Papi - I'm hanging a little extra on the "Fame" part of the title. Played huge in big games. Broke through into mainstream culture in a way few baseball players have this century. Perhaps blame it on Keenan Thompson.

    Bobby Abreu - Is the guy who famously because the poster boy for most underappreciated player in baseball now the most underappreciated player on the HOF ballot? I think so.

    Todd Helton - He was really excellent and a lot of people missed that because he was playing in Colorado. Also, gamesmanship here. Joey Votto is better and I want to be able to make the "if you put Todd Helton in ..." argument in the future.

    Andruw Jones - I never was a huge Jones fan. Seemed overrated in his day. Not great at getting on base, and I discount heavily for that. Yet he was sick in the field (Devon White was better) and the power was legit.
    Did you miss Pettitte too? I'm surprised how little support he is receiving...

  18. #28
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    Did you miss Pettitte too? I'm surprised how little support he is receiving...
    He rates low on the JAWS scale (81st among SPs). I kind of had him, Helton and Jones for my last two slots. I do think Pettitte deserves extra credit for his postseason work (19-11, 3.81, 276.2 IP). Honestly, I could be talked into any one of those three being ahead of the others.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  19. #29
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    He rates low on the JAWS scale (81st among SPs). I kind of had him, Helton and Jones for my last two slots. I do think Pettitte deserves extra credit for his postseason work (19-11, 3.81, 276.2 IP). Honestly, I could be talked into any one of those three being ahead of the others.
    Well I gave Tim Hudson a vote too so at least I'm consistent?

    I'm a "vote for 10 every year" voter as well and think just about everybody ahead of Pettite on that JAWS pitchers list should be in the hall. Things seems slanted towards the hitters recently. There's going to be a real shortage of pitchers with the kind of counting stats Pettitte and Hudson amassed on future ballots.

    It must be my bias showing, but I never thought of Mark Buehrle in the same echelon as Pettitte or Hudson, even though there he is sandwiched between the two on the JAWS list...

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  21. #30
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    Re: RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    I am still pondering who I will vote for. I generally agreed with much of M2's post.
    One candidate I am kicking around in my mind is Gary Sheffield. I was never particularly a Sheffield fan, I am aware of the PEDs allegations, I understand he was not regarded to be a good fielder, all of those issues. His career stats, at least on the surface, are HOF worthy: a .292 BA, .393 OBP, .514 SLG, 509 HRs, 1676 RBI, 1636 runs scored, 2689 hits. He won a batting title. He lead the league in OBP another season. He has a HOF Monitor Score of 158, well above the 100 score of the average member of the HOF, and has a HOF standards score of 61, above the 50 score of the average HOF member.
    The ten hitters in baseball history most similar to Sheffield are, in order, Chipper Jones, Mel Ott, Reggie Jackson, Carolos Beltran, Junior Griffey, Fred McGriff, Miguel Cabrera, Mickey Mantle, Billy Williams and Frank Robinson. Seven of those guys are in the HOF, Cabrera will be, McGriff will probably inducted decades from now by a veterans committee, and Beltran had a great case until the Astros scandal allegations.
    Sheffield's career WAR is 60.5, 18th all time among rightfielders (Baseball Reference.com lists Stan Musial as a rightfielder). The three rightfielders with a higher career WAR score than Sheffield who are not in the HOF are Shoeless Joe Jackson, and two Red Sox players: Dwight Evans and Reggie Smith.
    Sheffield is held down by his reputation and his poor fielding stats. His defensive WAR score is negative 27.7. Yes, that's a terrible number, but I have always been somewhat skeptical of fielding stats.
    However his offensive career WAR score is out of sight: 80.7, 6th all time among rightfielders. The only rightfielders in MLB history with a higher career WAR are Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Frank Robinson and Mel Ott. That says Hall of Famer to me.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 12-09-2021 at 07:31 PM. Reason: corrected typo; also clarified that he is sixth all time in oWAR for rightfielders.
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