RedsZone's 2022 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

[M2]

Well I gave Tim Hudson a vote too so at least I'm consistent?

I'm a "vote for 10 every year" voter as well and think just about everybody ahead of Pettite on that JAWS pitchers list should be in the hall. Things seems slanted towards the hitters recently. There's going to be a real shortage of pitchers with the kind of counting stats Pettitte and Hudson amassed on future ballots.

It must be my bias showing, but I never thought of Mark Buehrle in the same echelon as Pettitte or Hudson, even though there he is sandwiched between the two on the JAWS list...

Buehrle was sneaky good for a long time. Devoured innings and I don't think he ever missed a start in 16 years.

[M2]

I am still pondering who I will vote for. I generally agreed with much of M2's post.
One candidate I am kicking around in my mind is Gary Sheffield. I was never particularly a Sheffield fan, I am aware of the PEDs allegations, I understand he was not regarded to be a good fielder, all of those issues. His career stats, at least on the surface, are HOF worthy: a .292 BA, .393 OBP, .514 SLG, 509 HRs, 1676 RBI, 1636 runs scored, 2689 hits. He won a batting title. He lead the league in OBP another season. He has a HOF Monitor Score of 158, well above the 100 score of the average member of the HOF, and has a HOF standards score of 61, above the 50 score of the average HOF member.
The ten hitters in baseball history most similar to Sheffield are, in order, Chipper Jones, Mel Ott, Reggie Jackson, Carolos Beltran, Junior Griffey, Fred McGriff, Miguel Cabrera, Mickey Mantle, Bill Williams and Frank Robinson. Seven of those guys are in the HOF, Cabrera will be, McGriff will probably inducted decades from now by a veterans committee, and Beltran had a great case until the Astros scandal allegations.
Sheffield's career WAR is 60.5, 18th all time among rightfielders (Baseball Reference.com lists Stan Musial as a rightfielder). The three rightfielders with a higher career WAR score than Sheffield who are not in the HOF are Shoeless Joe Jackson, and two Red Sox players: Dwight Evans and Reggie Smith.
Sheffield is held down by his reputation and his poor fielding stats. His defensive WAR score is negative 27.7. Yes, that's a terrible number, but I have always been somewhat skeptical of fielding stats.
However his offensive career WAR score is out of sight: 80.7, 6th all time. The only rightfielders in MLB history with a higher career WAR are Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Frank Robinson and Mel Ott. That says Hall of Famer to me.

My knock on Sheffield is I'm pretty sure he jumped on the juice when he went to the Marlins in the mid-90s and I'm just not sure he was HOF without it. Kind of falls in the Sosa category for me. Immense numbers, and I do try to to reconsider him every season. Would be a lot trickier if Bonds and Manny had gained entry.

[kaldaniels]

Buehrle was sneaky good for a long time. Devoured innings and I don't think he ever missed a start in 16 years.

I gave Buerhle a one-time “atta-boy” vote. (My 9 other votes were “real.”)

Great career.

[TRF]

I checked Sosa as he fits the "Fame" part of HOF for me. plus a bazillion HR's.

I've decided I really don't care if they juiced because baseball didn't care until they were made to care. I still think it is criminal a two time MVP is not in the HOF. (Murphy)

[Kinsm]

45 voters thus far, keep them coming.

[redsmetz]

In the current tabulation of revealed voting, Ortiz, Bonds & Clemens make it. Scott Rolen is inching up.

I'll be glad to get Bonds & Clements elected and off the ballot. I agree with TRF above, "I've decided I really don't care if they juiced because baseball didn't care until they were made to care."

http://www.bbhoftracker.com/2021/12/...d-leaderboard/

[WrongVerb]

Kinda shocked to see Buehrle voted off the island.

[reds77]

In the current tabulation of revealed voting, Ortiz, Bonds & Clemens make it. Scott Rolen is inching up.

I'll be glad to get Bonds & Clements elected and off the ballot. I agree with TRF above, "I've decided I really don't care if they juiced because baseball didn't care until they were made to care."

http://www.bbhoftracker.com/2021/12/...d-leaderboard/

I agree with this sentiment. It's the past and I'm over my frustration when it was playing out in real time. I'm okay letting in Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire. We know juicing occurred when they played and it inflated numbers, but it is what it is.

[HokieRed]

Hard for me to see a way out of these problems. Bonds/Clemens were so outstanding that they would have been obvious shoo-ins and among the very top at their positions under any circumstances. Sosa and McGwire, on the other hand, are not better playes, IMO, than Palmeiro. So even if you just want to put it behind you, you can't really. Voting for Sosa and McGwire arguably creates new, irresolvable inequities.

[WrongVerb]

Question: if one ever became eligible, should the Hall allow in a player who had elective Lasik specifically to improve his eyesight to gain an advantage over other players?

My objection to steroids is that so many players will never realize playing in the majors, and ruin their health in the process. But if you take that damage out of the equation, I don't think it's any different than the example in the question i asked above.

[Chip R]

Question: if one ever became eligible, should the Hall allow in a player who had elective Lasik specifically to improve his eyesight to gain an advantage over other players?

That's a slippery slope since if you do that, you have to factor in guys who wore contacts and glasses.

My objection to steroids is that so many players will never realize playing in the majors, and ruin their health in the process. But if you take that damage out of the equation, I don't think it's any different than the example in the question i asked above.

The difference between PEDs and Lasix is that Lasix doesn't give you super-vision. It gives you normal vision without the hassle of contacts or glasses. Working out while on PEDs will give you strength and endurance that you can't get just by working out.

That said, I think writers are very selective about which PED users they will vote for. Someone like Bonds who had a horrible personality and was abusive to writers has had trouble getting in while it seems that David Ortiz will get in.

[RedsBaron]

That's a slippery slope since if you do that, you have to factor in guys who wore contacts and glasses.



The difference between PEDs and Lasix is that Lasix doesn't give you super-vision. It gives you normal vision without the hassle of contacts or glasses. Working out while on PEDs will give you strength and endurance that you can't get just by working out.

That said, I think writers are very selective about which PED users they will vote for. Someone like Bonds who had a horrible personality and was abusive to writers has had trouble getting in while it seems that David Ortiz will get in.

In fairness to both Bonds and Ortiz, we do not have a definitive drug test that unquestionably proves either player used PEDs. The primary reason we do not have definitive test results is because MLB did not test for PEDs for most of the career of Bonds and part of the career of Ortiz. Whose fault was that? The MLB owners, the Commissioner, the players union, the players, much of the media, etc.
Do I think Bonds and Ortiz used PEDs? I believe Bonds did and I suspect Ortiz did, but I do not know. Frankly there is no MLB player in the 1990s whom I would be willing to absolutely rule out when it comes to PEDs use.
Bonds was accused of using PEDs in the BALCO scandal, but he was not proven to have done so. His later perjury conviction was overturned. Ortiz was rumored to have failed a confidential drug test in 2003, but he denied using PEDs, issues were raised as to the accuracy of the testing and the reported results, and Commissioner Manfred conceded it was "entirely possible" that Ortiz did not test positive.

[savafan]

Why is the poll not available on the Tapatalk app?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[0-2 Count]

Bonds, Clemens, ARod, and Rolen for me.

[Kinsm]

Link to past year's RedsZone voting for anyone who wants to go back in time...

2021 (74 voters):
https://www.redszone.com/forums/show...OF-Ballot-Vote

2020 (94 voters):
https://www.redszone.com/forums/show...OF-Ballot-Vote

2019 (92 voters):
https://www.redszone.com/forums/show...OF-Ballot-Vote

With 50 votes thus far by RedsZone members, and about three weeks remaining, it’s looking as though “we” won’t be electing anyone this winter. Which is likely how the BBWAA will also ultimately vote.